Cross Country Districts
- Thread starter cidhawkeye
- Start date
It is true. Self reported, probably would have never been discovered but they self reported. Coach gave the direction on where practice was and the students pay the price.
Heavy handed response from the associations. They just scared off others from self reporting. They should have penalized the coaches and suspended them from the post-season, and let the kids run. The kids were only doing what they were told.
Disappointing on a number of levels.
Disappointing on a number of levels.
This is a verbatim quote from the rules book which is easily found on the IAHSAA website: "No team or individual is permitted on the state qualifying meet cross country course except for those schools that actually use the course for practice and meets during the season. Violation of this rule will result in the school not being allowed to compete in the state qualifying meet."
All head coaches are also required to watch a rules meeting video at the beginning of the season in which this is stated.
To those whose position is that the kids did at they were told;
The Fall Sports manual for Cross Country is a little over two pages long. It is not loaded with technical information, it is very easy to read. It should be required reading for any participant, their parents and of course the coaching staff. It is impossible for me to believe the Coaches and several runners or parents were not aware of the rule.
The runners would gain the advantage by practising the State course, not the Coaches. The idea of punishing the Coaches is ruse and would have little effect on the team's performance at the meet.
There aren't really that many "rules" in the IAHSAA sports manuals, it shouldn't be that hard for the programs to follow them.
The Fall Sports manual for Cross Country is a little over two pages long. It is not loaded with technical information, it is very easy to read. It should be required reading for any participant, their parents and of course the coaching staff. It is impossible for me to believe the Coaches and several runners or parents were not aware of the rule.
The runners would gain the advantage by practising the State course, not the Coaches. The idea of punishing the Coaches is ruse and would have little effect on the team's performance at the meet.
There aren't really that many "rules" in the IAHSAA sports manuals, it shouldn't be that hard for the programs to follow them.
Just imagine the outrage if the state circumvented the rules as people are stating they should have "we decided to allow the runners to run and punish the coaches" - WOW would that have been a firestorm (and especially since it is a private school - there's enough "unfair" talk going on).
Respect should be shown to a program that self-reports a violation of this nature. Any comment that indicates that integrity and character should not be displayed in the future, in an effort to avoid penalty, is an affront to the purpose of high school activities.
I feel empathy for any coach that makes a mistake, particularly when it affects their athletes, but even greater admiration for standing up and accepting the known consequence of that mistake. I do not know the coach at Iowa City Regina but I would shake their hand if I had the opportunity to meet them.
I feel empathy for any coach that makes a mistake, particularly when it affects their athletes, but even greater admiration for standing up and accepting the known consequence of that mistake. I do not know the coach at Iowa City Regina but I would shake their hand if I had the opportunity to meet them.
I agree Dutch. I heard about this situation 30 minutes before our district meet was going to run - It actually made me sick to my stomach. I feel horrible for the coaches and kids ...... because I can only imagine what it would feel like to make a similar mistake, and those mistakes can happen to anyone. I do know the coach at ICR.... class act. Program has exemplified class for decades....... I just feel terrible for everyone involved. Everyone..... everyone... makes mistakes. I have always had a tremendous amount of respect for the ICR program. I continue to have that same respect. I feel for all involved.
I just can't understand how this happened. This just doesn't sound like something an experienced coach would allow to happen. Is it possible that maybe the athletes did something on their own without coaches consent and then after the fact, he tried to put the blame on himself and take all of the punishment (supported by the AD) hoping the kids would still be allowed to compete? I know a second fib would conflict with self reporting but maybe they were desperate to keep the kids from getting penalized. Maybe the mistake was in not making sure the kids knew that rule. Is it a fact that the coaches were present at the practice session? I don't believe everything I read.
This is why I send my kids to Regina...
Written by one of Regina's top cross country athletes:
Integrity by Emilio
Integrity
Upholding integrity is difficult in a society that declares and defends its importance, but is willing to look the other way when it is convenient. At Regina, we refuse to do this, despite having to accept the difficult consequences associated with doing so. Such was the choice made by Mr. Foley, our Activities Director when he decided to self-report the infraction of our cross country team to state officials. We had practiced on the district cross country course in Solon, in preparation for the meet on Thursday. This was in direct violation of a state rule disallowing running on any district course prior to the meet, unless regularly used as a practice course throughout the year. Neither of our coaches, nor the Solon coach, were aware of this rule when we went to practice. Mr. Foley knew the rule, but was not notified by the coaches before we left. Once he did hear however, Mr. Foley made the heroic decision to notify the state that we had broken the rule, despite the pain that doing so caused him, and the pain he knew it would cause us, not being able to run at state.
Mr. Foley's decision to report our action to the state was without a doubt more important than qualifying for state. He set an example for the team, school, and community that we at Regina have integrity, and will sustain it despite the repercussions of doing so. If Mr. Foley hadn't reported us, we may have gotten away with it. The only other people who knew about it were the Solon coach and team, and they were unaware of the rule as well. Still, admitting to our offense was for the better. If we hadn't told anyone, and the state found out later, all of our awards would have been stripped from us, and that would have been harder to take than not being able to run. We avoided shame and can still hold our heads high.
The boys and girls state associations both decided to ban our team from competing at the district meet, and, subsequently, the state meet. In a perverse way, the state was rewarding our honesty and integrity with the disqualification. Reward? Yes! Anything less than that would have made us suspect. As it stands, our hearts and minds are pure and free from guilt. From this, we can truly believe that we did the right thing, though it cost us everything, and, at the end of the day, we are still winners.
Emilio Tovar
Junior, Regina High School
Written by one of Regina's top cross country athletes:
Integrity by Emilio
Integrity
Upholding integrity is difficult in a society that declares and defends its importance, but is willing to look the other way when it is convenient. At Regina, we refuse to do this, despite having to accept the difficult consequences associated with doing so. Such was the choice made by Mr. Foley, our Activities Director when he decided to self-report the infraction of our cross country team to state officials. We had practiced on the district cross country course in Solon, in preparation for the meet on Thursday. This was in direct violation of a state rule disallowing running on any district course prior to the meet, unless regularly used as a practice course throughout the year. Neither of our coaches, nor the Solon coach, were aware of this rule when we went to practice. Mr. Foley knew the rule, but was not notified by the coaches before we left. Once he did hear however, Mr. Foley made the heroic decision to notify the state that we had broken the rule, despite the pain that doing so caused him, and the pain he knew it would cause us, not being able to run at state.
Mr. Foley's decision to report our action to the state was without a doubt more important than qualifying for state. He set an example for the team, school, and community that we at Regina have integrity, and will sustain it despite the repercussions of doing so. If Mr. Foley hadn't reported us, we may have gotten away with it. The only other people who knew about it were the Solon coach and team, and they were unaware of the rule as well. Still, admitting to our offense was for the better. If we hadn't told anyone, and the state found out later, all of our awards would have been stripped from us, and that would have been harder to take than not being able to run. We avoided shame and can still hold our heads high.
The boys and girls state associations both decided to ban our team from competing at the district meet, and, subsequently, the state meet. In a perverse way, the state was rewarding our honesty and integrity with the disqualification. Reward? Yes! Anything less than that would have made us suspect. As it stands, our hearts and minds are pure and free from guilt. From this, we can truly believe that we did the right thing, though it cost us everything, and, at the end of the day, we are still winners.
Emilio Tovar
Junior, Regina High School
Thx for sharing. I find it upsetting to often hear negative things about today's youth. To be quite honest, most of my students and athletes are much better people than I was at their age. They are more service oriented, work harder, and are more concerned about academic success than I ever was. I, despite what others may think, feel our future is in fantastic hands. This letter supports my theory. And by the way, I feel this way about both private and public school students. Bravo Mr. Tovar, Bravo!!!
As you are aware, that statement and your summary above are what make coaching XC so rewarding. In general, these athletes never cease to amaze; whether it be their thoughts or their actions. I've coached 4 varsity sports, and it has been my experience that the XC kids do such things on a much higher frequency than any other sport.
It is unfortunate that none of the coaches, participants or parents had taken the 2-3 minutes to read the two and a half pages of rules for Cross Country. All of this heroics and wringing of hands and feeling good about being held accountable could have been avoided.
I have known this rule since I ran (back in the day) and i have never been a XC coach - for any coach to not know the rules fo their respective sport, well to me ignorance is not an excuse. Hats off to Regina for self-reporting, but did everyone expect the state to say "thanks for being honest, now go ahead and run and we will tell all the other teams to look the other way to fact that you have a distinct advantage".
Do you think Marv Cook would overlook\not know a rule in football? Or ICR soccer coach overlook\not know a rule on the pitch? The fault falls first and foremost on the coach.
I bet that rule never gets violated again with the attention drawn to it.
It was my understanding that this was a relatively recent rule change (in the last few years). Still not an excuse though, Regina stepped up and did the right thing. The Solon coaches that invited the Regina team to the course to practice with them apparently didn't know the rule either.
I can only say that the rule has been in place since I began coaching in Iowa in 2005. I do not know exactly when it was first implemented. I remember because I was surprised by it when I first moved here. In Missouri the State Course is open to teams the night before the race and everyone practices there on Friday (or did from 1999-2004).
Where is the practicing with another team stated as a violation? I did not find it. Does two runners from different schools who are friends going for a run together constitute a violation. I recall several years ago that some highly ranked runners from different schools and different classes openly ran together on weekend runs as reported by the media.
I was told of a course violation in the early 80's so it's been around for quite some time.
Does anyone know if this is a NFHS rule that can be adopted by individual states?
I've never heard of a rule prohibiting teams from practicing with each other either going on 30 years.
Does anyone know if this is a NFHS rule that can be adopted by individual states?
I've never heard of a rule prohibiting teams from practicing with each other either going on 30 years.
From page 10 - 11 of the IAHSAA Sports Manual found on the association's website. Bolded/underlined paragraph addressing practicing with other member schools. If you check, cross country is not allowed scrimmages.
http://www.iahsaa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/2014_2015_IHSAAHandbook.pdf
PRACTICE FACILITY POLICY
Iowa High School Athletic Association member schools may use practice facilities, other than their regular school facilities,
with no prior approval from the IHSAA as long as the following criteria are met:
Member schools holding practice at a practice facility other than their regular school practice facility, one time per week or
more, must have a written agreement between the member school and the member school where the practice will be held or the organization operating the practice facility.
Member schools holding practice at a practice facility other than their regular practice facility, on an occasional or emergency basis, must have local school administration approval before each practice session. Only a school's bona-fide coaches may provide instruction during practice regardless of where practice takes place.
Member schools may not practice with another member school except in scrimmage situations. [Note the scrimmage rule for each sport as posted in the regular season handbook.
[/B]
No school practice shall take place at an IHSAA state tournament venue, unless otherwise indicated in that sport's specific
post-season manual.
Schools traveling to a state tournament or not returning home between rounds of the state tournament may NOT practice at
the site where the state tournament is being held, unless the IHSAA has arranged for practice times for all schools involved.
(Please refer to the fall and spring post-season manuals for information on golf as it pertains to practice rounds at the
sectional, district and state meet sites.
http://www.iahsaa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/2014_2015_IHSAAHandbook.pdf
PRACTICE FACILITY POLICY
Iowa High School Athletic Association member schools may use practice facilities, other than their regular school facilities,
with no prior approval from the IHSAA as long as the following criteria are met:
Member schools holding practice at a practice facility other than their regular school practice facility, one time per week or
more, must have a written agreement between the member school and the member school where the practice will be held or the organization operating the practice facility.
Member schools holding practice at a practice facility other than their regular practice facility, on an occasional or emergency basis, must have local school administration approval before each practice session. Only a school's bona-fide coaches may provide instruction during practice regardless of where practice takes place.
Member schools may not practice with another member school except in scrimmage situations. [Note the scrimmage rule for each sport as posted in the regular season handbook.
[/B]
No school practice shall take place at an IHSAA state tournament venue, unless otherwise indicated in that sport's specific
post-season manual.
Schools traveling to a state tournament or not returning home between rounds of the state tournament may NOT practice at
the site where the state tournament is being held, unless the IHSAA has arranged for practice times for all schools involved.
(Please refer to the fall and spring post-season manuals for information on golf as it pertains to practice rounds at the
sectional, district and state meet sites.
If you had permission to use the ISU course, and it wasn't your district course, but Gilbert was there (I am assuming it is their home course since they are the district host) and you ran there while Gilbert ran there, but not actually WITH them, is that a violation????? I mean what is actually a "scrimmage" in xc anyway?? Going out for an easy-not competitive distance run- is that really a scrimmage? Common sense has to prevail and we have to realize sports are different from one another. Now, if you were doing repeat 800's or miles and busting your hump to stay with the other teams runner, I would call that a scrimmage.
In regards to your post:
Originally posted by Pinehawk:
It was my understanding that this was a relatively recent rule change (in the last few years). Still not an excuse though, Regina stepped up and did the right thing. The Solon coaches that invited the Regina team to the course to practice with them apparently didn't know the rule either.
Then, focus on the bold part below, specifically the part that says "May not practice with". Common sense is not a concern here when it is very clear that practicing with another team is disallowed. The question of what a scrimmage looks like in XC does not come into question either because schools are allowed zero scrimmage dates.
Originally posted by oguard_run:
From page 10 - 11 of the IAHSAA Sports Manual found on the association's website. Bolded/underlined paragraph addressing practicing with other member schools. If you check, cross country is not allowed scrimmages.
http://www.iahsaa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/2014_2015_IHSAAHandbook.pdf
PRACTICE FACILITY POLICY
Iowa High School Athletic Association member schools may use practice facilities, other than their regular school facilities,
with no prior approval from the IHSAA as long as the following criteria are met:
Member schools holding practice at a practice facility other than their regular school practice facility, one time per week or
more, must have a written agreement between the member school and the member school where the practice will be held or the organization operating the practice facility.
Member schools holding practice at a practice facility other than their regular practice facility, on an occasional or emergency basis, must have local school administration approval before each practice session. Only a school's bona-fide coaches may provide instruction during practice regardless of where practice takes place.
Member schools may not practice with another member school except in scrimmage situations. [Note the scrimmage rule for each sport as posted in the regular season handbook.
[/B]
No school practice shall take place at an IHSAA state tournament venue, unless otherwise indicated in that sport's specific
post-season manual.
Schools traveling to a state tournament or not returning home between rounds of the state tournament may NOT practice at
the site where the state tournament is being held, unless the IHSAA has arranged for practice times for all schools involved.
(Please refer to the fall and spring post-season manuals for information on golf as it pertains to practice rounds at the
sectional, district and state meet sites.
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
This post was edited on 11/1 7:04 PM by B-K_Teach
Read the last sentence from the following. Focus on the key words "Invited" and "with".
Originally posted by Pinehawk:
It was my understanding that this was a relatively recent rule change (in the last few years). Still not an excuse though, Regina stepped up and did the right thing. The Solon coaches that invited the Regina team to the course to practice with them apparently didn't know the rule either.
Then, focus on the bold part below, specifically the part that says "May not practice with". Common sense is not a concern here when it is very clear that practicing with another team is disallowed. The question of what a scrimmage looks like in XC does not come into question either because schools are allowed zero scrimmage dates.
Originally posted by oguard_run:
From page 10 - 11 of the IAHSAA Sports Manual found on the association's website. Bolded/underlined paragraph addressing practicing with other member schools. If you check, cross country is not allowed scrimmages.
http://www.iahsaa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/2014_2015_IHSAAHandbook.pdf
PRACTICE FACILITY POLICY
Iowa High School Athletic Association member schools may use practice facilities, other than their regular school facilities,
with no prior approval from the IHSAA as long as the following criteria are met:
Member schools holding practice at a practice facility other than their regular school practice facility, one time per week or
more, must have a written agreement between the member school and the member school where the practice will be held or the organization operating the practice facility.
Member schools holding practice at a practice facility other than their regular practice facility, on an occasional or emergency basis, must have local school administration approval before each practice session. Only a school's bona-fide coaches may provide instruction during practice regardless of where practice takes place.
Member schools may not practice with another member school except in scrimmage situations. [Note the scrimmage rule for each sport as posted in the regular season handbook.
[/B]
No school practice shall take place at an IHSAA state tournament venue, unless otherwise indicated in that sport's specific
post-season manual.
Schools traveling to a state tournament or not returning home between rounds of the state tournament may NOT practice at
the site where the state tournament is being held, unless the IHSAA has arranged for practice times for all schools involved.
(Please refer to the fall and spring post-season manuals for information on golf as it pertains to practice rounds at the
sectional, district and state meet sites.
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
This post was edited on 11/1 7:04 PM by B-K_Teach
huh. Sounds like Solon should have been DQ'ed as well for "inviting" which would violate the rule.
What about a neutral site that is neither of their home practice course?
Anybody notice the colors of the state meet t-shirts?
What about a neutral site that is neither of their home practice course?
Anybody notice the colors of the state meet t-shirts?
The site of the practice is irrelevant to the "scrimmage/practice" rule. If Fort Dodge and St Edmond both practiced in the same site, no problem. If Fort Dodge and St Edmond both traveled incidentally to the same site on the same day, say Brushy Creek State Park, no problem. If they are practicing together, runners alongside each other from other schools, that's the problem.
As pointed out earlier, it is not uncommon for Ames/Gilbert runners to cross one another when practicing, which is totally fine.
What isn't necessarily known here is whether Solon coaches actually extended an invitation to practice together or if that is just one person's assumption of what actually occurred. The penalty, too, for practicing together is likely different from prohibition from competing at the SQM.
As pointed out earlier, it is not uncommon for Ames/Gilbert runners to cross one another when practicing, which is totally fine.
What isn't necessarily known here is whether Solon coaches actually extended an invitation to practice together or if that is just one person's assumption of what actually occurred. The penalty, too, for practicing together is likely different from prohibition from competing at the SQM.
Dan,
Two individuals meeting up for runs on the weekend is greatly different from two schools having practice together. Much in the same way that two guys playing 1-on-1 on a school blacktop is vastly different from two teams running 3-on-3 drills on one another. You can keep your state titles, you did nothing wrong.
Yep -
Runners being in the same place at the same time, doing their own thing = fine.
Runners planning to run with each other individually on their own time = fine.
Runners from different teams ending up in the same road race = fine.
Runners from different schools running with each other at a camp outside the season = fine.
2 coaches, in season, saying: "Let's have practice together." Same workout, grouping kids together from different teams, etc. = not fine.
Runners being in the same place at the same time, doing their own thing = fine.
Runners planning to run with each other individually on their own time = fine.
Runners from different teams ending up in the same road race = fine.
Runners from different schools running with each other at a camp outside the season = fine.
2 coaches, in season, saying: "Let's have practice together." Same workout, grouping kids together from different teams, etc. = not fine.
To go along with this....
My wife and I are coaches at two different schools and stayed at the same hotel on Friday before the state meet - our teams ran Friday afternoon in two different locations to make sure there wasn't anything close to a rules violation. My wife and I are very conscious of this rule.
We have a few different runners that have gotten together (with the other team) and run on the weekends... they have told us they are going to run together, but we have not set up this, we never give them a workout or a location.
My wife and I are coaches at two different schools and stayed at the same hotel on Friday before the state meet - our teams ran Friday afternoon in two different locations to make sure there wasn't anything close to a rules violation. My wife and I are very conscious of this rule.
We have a few different runners that have gotten together (with the other team) and run on the weekends... they have told us they are going to run together, but we have not set up this, we never give them a workout or a location.
Seems to kind of skirt the spirit of the rule but it's not a violation. If it is such a competitive advantage that a rule needs to be written then maybe they need to expand that rule.
Good luck with that. If you do that, then there could not be more than 1 hs xc runner per 5k road race event. Cid, you gonna police that? Also, not sure of the number of scrimmages wrestling teams get, but I can bet you many get together at each other's houses or some place that has a mat and roll around. As mentioned before, some bball players get together for some 21 or something and you want to "x" that out. Cmon, let's just keep this at the team level and enforcing it will be easy.
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