Are girls short-changed in Iowa?

[osagefan89]

An ESPN article this past spring was published about the 10 states, including Iowa, that have the boys race cross country meets at a different distance than the girls.

It's an interesting article. In Iowa, is it a gender equity issue? ... should it be?

Setting up a single 5K course would certainly be easier than having to have the 2mile/4K/5K routes for a full meet. Should that be a motivation to change?

The girls have had the 4K distance for about 10 years. The boys switched to a 5K about 25 years ago. Before that, both were at 2 miles.

Any thoughts?

http://espn.go.com/high-school/girl/story/_/id/7906220/in-10-states-girls-run-shorter-cross-country-races-boys-why

 

[cc_gru]

I would like to see the girls race 5k's... Those willing to race 4k aren't going to hesitate over a 5k - after a while when the 5k is "normal" for girls and boys cross country - it will seem goofy that we weren't there all along - (kind of like the boys once racing a 2 mile CC meet seems so short now). Wasn't the boys and girls distance once only one mile back in the 60's?

hmmm... just pondering... I believe up until the early 90's some were afraid that girls couldn't run up and down a basketball court, so we only let them go up 1/2 the court. How's that change going?

 

[oguard_run]

Did the article also address the fact that collegiate races aren't of equal distances for men and women? I agree there is no reason that men/women boys/girls can run equal distances, they do in road races so I don't see a reason why not. But why aren't colleges ever consider running the same distance. You always hear about the inequity in Iowa in distances but never the collegiate level.

 

[cc coach]

I would say the one thing that is good about the 4k/5k difference is that physiologically, the races ARE the same. Race equality is more about time spent racing than total distance. Good girls are running 15-17 minutes. Good boys are running about the same. I agree that girls are perfectly capable of running 5k. I would support 5k for girls, but, that would make it a different race - it would suddenly be a 19-21 minute race for good runners.

When people say they want girls to do the "same" they need to realize, that what they would really be doing is having girls do "more."

 

[i am the runner]

I coached varsity cc for girls in az for 5 years, we ran 5k races. It would make a difference if the race would be shorter for those girls that have more turnover or speed compared to those that are the constant pace for the entire 5k distant. I dont know if I wrote that correctly to be clear. Example: I had a girl that was one of the very best in the state, finished 5th in 5A-1 and 5th overall no matter class size. She was legit, but she had zero speed, she had a pace that was fast that she could maintain but if it came down to a kick she wouldnt have it. Thankfully her maintain speed would burn those other kickers out, for the most part, over that longer distance of 5k. She wasn't near the stud at track as she was in cc, but then again those are different sports and different distance, 1 on a flat oval single surface while the other has hills, random turns, and many different surfaces.

I guess I need to make an opinion here also, they should run the same distances of 5k each. I really don't get why they don't, but I am pretty sure they use to or maybe still do, have the girls run the 1500 and 3000 in Iowa track and not the mile and 2 mile.

 

[oguard_run]

They still run 1500 and 3000. Don't get me wrong here, love that the boys run 1 mile and 2mile, but I believe that's an Iowa adaption from the National Federation, what's the other states run considering 1500 and 3000 are the contested events in college and in world sanctioned events?

 

[meandmyshadow]

Same with track - girls run a 1500, boys run a 1600 as well as 3000m and 3200m races.Not sure why the difference is there in CC as well, I thought the "equality" thing would have taken care of it.

 

[i am the runner]

Excellent point that in the ncaa's both men and women run the 1500 and 3000. I cant believe I didn't think about that. I really feel that on the track those high school runners should be running those same distances, not farther! Doesn't make sense.

 

[mtdew_fever]

CC Coach - your comment on the time equality makes sense to me. If this is really an issue, then this can be brought up at the next Coaches Meeting.

In regards on the track, it makes no difference to me. One could question why girls aren't running the 110HH or throwing the same size shot/discus as the boys as well.

 

[cc coach]

mtdew - the time thing is more significant than maybe a lot of people think. I guess the best comparison I could make is this - what if Division 3 men started racing a 10K every meet instead of 5 miles every meet. It would be a very similar amount of additional racing "time" each meet. What kind of a difference might that make over the course of a season? I think it would matter, and it would add up over time.

Likewise, consider the following:

Is a "400 meter dash" the same for everyone? It is "equal" right? No. Not really. When Michael Johnson ran a 400, he was across the finish line in 43 seconds. Lactic acid does not even really set in until 45 seconds. Even a really good HS girl takes 60 seconds. She has to race under a totally different energy system (lactic acid) for a full 15 seconds that Michael Johnson NEVER experiences DURING the race. People always say: "He does not even look like he is working." Well, in some ways he wasn't. "The Bear" never jumped on his back until he was doing his victory lap. Biology and physiology work more on time and intensity than they do on distance.

Same with other races - If you can run 800 in 1:41, is it the "same" race as one that takes you 2:30?

Who is more likely to "hit the wall" - a marathoner that is done in 2:06 - or someone who is running for 3 or 4 hours?

Personally, I would love 5k for girls, because I think it would be great for our teams - I think our girls would love it, and they would be (on average) better equipped to race a little further. But, I think it needs to be recognized that "equality" is not as simple as distance.

 

[i am the runner]

I am going to disagree with your lactic acid theory here on time. There is not a time barrier for lactic acid like a bomb ticking down as you have described it. It happens when a person hits the anaerobic threshold and continues to work/exercise at that peak, once a person has hit that peak the body doesn't use glucose efficiently and that causes the release of lactic acid and that muscle burn (monkey on your back). That peak varies for all people depending on the fitness level and genetics of that person, but everyone does have a limit. So Michael Johnson didn't look like he was running hard, he was, and he was at that threshold to run 43 seconds. He was dealing with the same lactic build up other runners experience because he was running at that threshold and or above.

 

[i am the runner]

Thinking about it some more, I want to make sure I make this clear, lactic acid doesnt happen for everyone at 45 seconds as you stated and compared to a girl that runs the 400 in 60 seconds, thus giving her 15 seconds of lactic running. Each person has their own I guess time bomb of lactic acid and that time bomb calculator depends on several factors.

1. fitness level
2. genetics
3. energy exerted (how fast that energy is being exerted and for how long, like if a runner gets up to max speed in the 200 right out of the blocks they can only sustain that speed for a certain distance before they will slow down)

Now Michael Johnson was at max speed and max potential and at that anearobic threshold while running 43 seconds, thus he had to have lactic acid, maybe not much but it was happening. Thats also why we have a pace when we run so that we minimize that lactic acid.

 

[cc coach]

Actually, I was not very clear in what I wrote. You are right. Michael Johnson DID have lactic acid building up. As you mentioned - if you do something at 100% effort, you are building up lactic acid (very shortly after starting). Anyone who does anything at 100% intensity will quickly exhaust creatine phosphate stores, they will quickly exhaust glucose stores in muscles. They then need to convert more glycogen/glucose to ATP if they want to keep "doing" something. If they are going at a diminished rate, they can do that aerobically and not build up lactic acid. However, in the case of the 400, obviously, it is basically all out. In order to get the energy needed, a different pathway is used and a byproduct is lactic acid.

Where I was going with the 45 second statement was this - generally, it is at about 45 seconds that the "accumulation of lactic acid" is such that you can no longer function efficiently at what you are doing. Your form falls apart, your muscles tighten up, oxygen debt is being reached and you slow down. If you are Michael Johnson, this moment actually comes AFTER you have crossed the finish line. If you are a HS girl - you still have 75-100 meters left in your race - you are not done.

We play around with this a little in biology class - a good example of this is have someone pretty strong benchpress the bar 100 times as fast as they can. Time them. Almost always when people do this, somewhere right around 45 seconds, things start going south. Technique breaks down and what seamed ok, is suddenly really difficult. Same with running as fast as you can. Time people in the 400 that are running all out - especially girls that take 60 seconds or more. Right about 45 seconds, watch them, it is fairly universal (in my observations) that this is where you can really start to see the effects of lactic acid accumulating.

So, yes - Michael Johnson is building up lactic acid like anyone would putting out max effort. I was just pointing out that he is actually finished with his race when he begins to feel the full effects. So, 400 meters is not "the same" for everyone. Likewise, 5k is not "the same" for everyone either. Which goes back to my original point - one nice thing about the 4k/5k distance is that all the kids are essentially competing for the same "time."

 

[i am the runner]

Excellent clarification, on how lactic acid works, but I am still going to disagree with your 45 second theory and here is why I feel it is still proportional to the person based on what I have said above and how I may debunk your bench press break down also. I am enjoying this conversation also and I feel it is very insightful.

A high school girl that runs a 60 second 400 may not have exerted her full effort and may have paced her to not be at that max threshold fast to still have 75-100 meters, there is a reason why some girls/runners in general dont look like they have fallen as far off or apart coming in that home stretch, but they are all feeling it.

All 400 runners, including michael johnson are taught to get out fast, he needed to go through the 200 mark in 20.5-21.0 roughly to come back the second half of the race to finish in the 43 second mark. Running 45-47, we were taught to go through in 21.5-21.9 knowing that the last half of the race the lactic acid was going to build up no matter what and we would be slower the second 200 of the race. Even though he looks ok finishing, he could still be feeling those effects and really feeling them, but he has trained his body to not break form. That is a big part of training that is often overlooked is keeping form no mater what because that can be a big difference. I wish Mr. Johnson could chim in and tell us how he actually felt. lol

I like your bench press test, but I have some questions which I am sure you have discussed with your classes, have you had a person who is really strong, 400 lbx max do the same bar bench test, would they have a form fall out at that 45 second march or would they hold form because there bodies are trained to do more weight? Have a student that is really weak like 100 lbs max fail much sooner? I don't know if I just debunked my own theory or yours? But it seems to me that depending on fitness level, gentics, and then the event (400 meters, 200 meters, 1600 meters, or 45 lbs max rep for 60 seconds, 145 lbs max rep for 60 seconds) all play factors in when the lactic acid/muscle failure mark is. I feel this would be a good science fair project.

 

[i am the runner]

science fair project

10-20 students both girls and boys equally represented with multiple and varied weights
weights, heights, lengths of arms
Record 1 rep max bench
I would say don't let them lift for 1 week to let their bodies fully recover
Reweigh and remeasure
do the 60 second bar test
record results.
wait 1 week
remeasure/reweigh
60 second test again
record results

 

[cc coach]

The key to any of my assertions is that 95-100% effort is being given by the individual in the activity. So, if a person runs a 400, but paces themselves, and runs 80 seconds - then yes, that would not really be doing the same thing. And, I fully agree with your example of the talented outlier or the highly trained individual. We have had really strong kids do this - and they definitely do not struggle with it as much - but it is surprising how hard it still is for even kids who can bench 250-300+ pounds. We have had many kids who can bench 200-250, but could not lift the bar 100 times as fast as they could. I also agree with extremely weak kids - they just can't do it- usually, we give them a "curl bar" and maybe put 5's on it or something like that.

But here is what I have always found - if you give someone a weight that is sort of proportional in challenge - to where they are honestly giving 95-100% to lift that as fast as they can. It is amazing how close to that 45 second mark you start seeing real signs of fatigue, form break down, muscle failure, etc.

We had a group of 3 or 4 really good athletes 6 or 7 years ago. 1:58- low 2:00 type 800 runners, 50-52 second 400 runners. Football players though - not CC runners. They were strong and lifted (not huge guys though). They figured out the "trick" to lifting the bar 100 times - do it in less than 60 seconds. Almost without exception, the only way you can lift the bar 100 times is to be strong and get done in under (or around 60.) 45 the lactic acid is really building up. up to 60, you can gut it out. But much after that and your muscles stop cooperating altogether. You simply cannot do something at 100% effort for 90 seconds or 2:00. No way. The only way is to "pace" yourself at less than 90%. People that are honestly lifting it as fast as they can, and taking 75 seconds to 2:00 - almost can never actually do it. Or, we have stopped them because it looked like they would drop the bar on their face.

There is certainly a "bell curve" to this - with extremes on both ends for certain.

Try it out sometime with a few people - just the bar (45lbs) 100 times as fast as you can - all the way down, full extension. Take a stop watch and when the time hits 45 (or there about), see what starts to happen. Make sure you have spotters though, cause once it sets in, you don't want someone dropping a bar on themselves.