3A

[ronsss]

oonfoofoo

i too was very surprised in regards to lewis centrals future forcast class numbers....they must have smaller classes coming up. i recieved the info from the harlan paper, and not real sure why the big decline. lewis central, being part of metro omaha area, one would not project such a drop off like 20%. also, harlan seems to get smaller allmost every year too, not good for the cyclones. i was hoping maybe avoca , elkhorn, or irwin/kirkman would join harlan community..i do believe irwin/kirkman allmost did many years ago..

 

[Vroom_C14]

How many 3A programs have 70+ kids on their varsity roster?

 

[oonfoofoo]

26

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by oonfoofoo:
26

Is that a ficticious number or is that something you researched? If that is factual, I am surprised.

 

[oonfoofoo]

I am just playing

Are you talking about a roster of kids or a roster of "players"?

 

[paxregis]

Originally posted by ronsss:
lewis central will probabaly be 3a soon again...they have a projected 20% decline in enrollement for the next 5 years...

lewis central- 2013-2014 enrollment----3113
projected-2018-19 enrollment----2413

change- -21.9%







Projected Enrollment
School 2013-2014* Projected 2018-'19** Change
Atlantic ................1,483 ...................1,499 .................+1.1%
AHST .....................597 ......................531 ................ -11.1%
Carroll .................1,672 ...................1,719 .................+2.8%
Clarinda .................991 ......................937 ..................-5.4%
Creston ...............1,541 ...................1,513 ..................-1.7%
Denison ..............2,217 ...................2,187 ..................-1.4%
Exira-EHK ..............425 ......................349 ................-17.9%
Glenwood ...........1,960 ...................1,675 ................-14.5%
Harlan .......... 1,563 ...............1,411 ..............-9.7%
IKM-Manning .........649 ......................604 ..................-6.9%
Lewis Central ......3,113 ...................2,432 ................-21.9%
Red Oak .............1,161 ...................1,094 ..................-5.8%
Shenandoah .......1,010 ......................906 ................-10.3%
* Enrollment numbers for 2013-2014 reported by schools
** Projections made by the Iowa Department of Education
This post was edited on 8/9 3:41 PM by ronsss

Not sure where you are getting the 3113 current enrollment figure for Lewis Central. I went to the DOE website and found the source document and Lewis Central reported 2550, so the projected enrollment of 2432 is a much smaller decline.

 

[KidSilverhair]

Originally posted by Vroom_C14:

How many 3A programs have 70+ kids on their varsity roster?

Are you saying we should classify schools by how many kids go out for football, instead of overall enrollment numbers?

If that's so, CR Jefferson should have probably been playing 2A the last few years.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by KidSilverhair:

Originally posted by Vroom_C14:

How many 3A programs have 70+ kids on their varsity roster?

Are you saying we should classify schools by how many kids go out for football, instead of overall enrollment numbers?

If that's so, CR Jefferson should have probably been playing 2A the last few years.

Um no. Man do you read into things...

Some schools have large participation numbers for their enrollment and I wonder what they do to get that many kids out knowing that roughly about 20 will see any significant playing time.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Good article on Assumption. How anyone could not pick them to win their district is crazy... With what they have coming back, their only tests will be Week1 vs Bett and Week2 vs Xavier.

The Knights, who switched to a 3-4 scheme last season, pitched five shutouts and yielded the fewest yards (201 per game) in the MAC. They have four of their top five tacklers returning in linebacker Jake Poster, Hager, Owens and Argo.


Knights

 

[KidSilverhair]

Originally posted by Vroom_C14:

Um no. Man do you read into things...

Some schools have large participation numbers for their enrollment and I wonder what they do to get that many kids out knowing that roughly about 20 will see any significant playing time.

Sorry. I started off the day by looking back at some of this thread from last winter. Got me all wound up all over again.

I shouldn't have tried to twist your question into something you weren't implying.

Can we start actually playing football now?

 

[cruhawk]

Originally posted by Vroom_C14:

How many 3A programs have 70+ kids on their varsity roster?

Probably a good number would have. Thing is, there are quite a few sophomores--and even freshmen--on those rosters to get to that number. Now upper level 4A programs have 70 kids on the team too. But they're almost all juniors & seniors.
This post was edited on 8/19 5:51 PM by cruhawk

 

[0419JED]

"Are you saying we should classify schools by how many kids go out for football, instead of overall enrollment numbers?"

Vroom wouldn't but I will. Yes, I believe a school's football program should be classified, at least in part, by it's success on the field. How else do you achieve parity? In my experience, that is one of the main goals of almost every sports organization on the planet.

Everyone wants their team to win but the league/sanctioning organization does not do well when one of it's members dominates year after year. Don't believe me? Google "MotoGP" and you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

[Vroom_C14]

And Xavier is walking through their district...

So is Assumption...

 

[Insuredhawk]

How many alternative students and learning disabled students do the parochial schools have ?? Yet these students all count for "enrollment numbers" don't they?? Also, some 3A programs have to take on smaller schools enrollment figures as well when they have a shared football program -- and they may only get 2-3 kids from these schools... Arguing purely on enrollment is a flawed system when we are comparing public and private schools. Why not have classes for private schools and separate ones for public schools like some states do already??

 

[Team10]

Insuredhawk are you saying special ed kids doing count? or alternative kids? (not sure even what you mean with that term) If the kid is enrolled they count. Thats like saying all the FFA kids shouldn't count for athletics BEDS #?? On taking on for shared programs, Schools will not take on a school if it will change their classification. Pella Christian for years had some kids that wanted to play football but they didn't have it. They could have come to Pella but that would have pushed Pella to 4A for football and that was not in best interest of anyone envovled. No one has to take another school.

 

[Insuredhawk]

Team 10 -- no what I am saying is public school numbers are not the same as parochial schools due to at-risk, alternative students, and counting smaller neighboring schools enrollment figures... The parochial schools have few if any of these students. So it is apples to oranges when using these figures for athletics...

 

[cidhawkeye]

There are not a lot of states with separate classes for public and private, nor are there a great deal of multiplier states. Maybe the state should look at removing special ed students removed from the BEDS since that seems to be the point that keeps getting made again and again and again aaaaand again. Soon to follow is the reduced lunch argument and then this will evolve into the recruiting topic.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
There are not a lot of states with separate classes for public and private, nor are there a great deal of multiplier states. Maybe the state should look at removing special ed students removed from the BEDS since that seems to be the point that keeps getting made again and again and again aaaaand again. Soon to follow is the reduced lunch argument and then this will evolve into the recruiting topic.

Hola Cid!

Found this interesting -
Alabama multiplier in effect
Arkansas multiplier in effect
Georgia (seperates priv\pub in smaller schools)
Illinois multiplier in effect
Connecticut mulitiplier in effect
Florida (seperates prv\pub in select sports - football is one).
Indiana (uses success advancement based on postseason play)
Kansas (has a proposal on the floor to seperate prv\pub).
Marlyand - seperate tournaments for priv and pub
Minnesota uses a reverse multiplier based on # of students in activity and Free Reduced lunch.
Mississippi - privates compete in a independent association against teams from LA and AR.
Missouri - multiplier (1.35 to priv, 2.0 for single sex schools).
Nevada - point system based on success is used to move teams up\down every two years.
New Jersey - prv\pub have own tournaments and multiple classfications.
New York - places prv based on past success up or down a class.
North Carolina has seperate associations for privates.
South Carolina has a prv assocation and a combined (based on schools success).
Tennessee Schools are split into 2 divisions. Div I for pub and prv that do not provide financial assistance and Div II for those that do provide financial assistance.
Texas seperate associations (prv pub play for seperate championships)
Virginia seperate associations ...

That is a shorthand version of the article linked.



States

 

[cidhawkeye]

Originally posted by Vroom_C14:

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
There are not a lot of states with separate classes for public and private, nor are there a great deal of multiplier states. Maybe the state should look at removing special ed students removed from the BEDS since that seems to be the point that keeps getting made again and again and again aaaaand again. Soon to follow is the reduced lunch argument and then this will evolve into the recruiting topic.

Hola Cid!

Found this interesting -
Alabama multiplier in effect
Arkansas multiplier in effect
Actually no multiplier, non publics are just moved up a class

Georgia (seperates priv\pub in smaller schools)
"Ended a 1.5 multiplier formula for private schools in 2008 after eight years. Data showed that the multiplier did not impact the percentage of private schools winning state titles[/B]. Separation of private and public schools in the state's small-school division was approved in 2012."




Illinois multiplier in effect
Would apply to every school in Iowa since every school is non boundaried(open enrollment)

Connecticut mulitiplier in effect
In basketball only

Florida (seperates prv\pub in select sports - football is one).
"Has separation of private and public schools in select sports among small schools."

Indiana (uses success advancement based on postseason play)
Kansas (has a proposal on the floor to seperate prv\pub).
Nothing yet

Marlyand - seperate tournaments for priv and pub
Minnesota uses a reverse multiplier based on # of students in activity and Free Reduced lunch.
Mississippi - privates compete in a independent association against teams from LA and AR.
"The state association has 13 private schools. A group of school administrators failed to ban private schools from joining the state association in 2013. Other privates compete in an independent state association that also features schools from Arkansas and Louisiana."

Missouri - multiplier (1.35 to priv, 2.0 for single sex schools).
Nevada - point system based on success is used to move teams up\down every two years.
New Jersey - prv\pub have own tournaments and multiple classfications.
"Some sports bring multiple state champions together to create a Tournament of Champions."

New York - places prv based on past success up or down a class.
North Carolina has seperate associations for privates.
"There are also separate associations for independent and Christian schools."

South Carolina has a prv assocation and a combined (based on schools success).
"There is an independent school state association, but privates and publics also compete together in a separate association."


Tennessee Schools are split into 2 divisions. Div I for pub and prv that do not provide financial assistance and Div II for those that do provide financial assistance.
Texas seperate associations (prv pub play for seperate championships)
Virginia seperate associations ...

That is a shorthand version of the article linked.

Hola back,

Thought I would add a little detail to what you posted. So if my math is right I get the following

4 States with an across the board multiplier of which 1(Illinois) would apply to all Iowa high schools
2 states with a limited multiplier

4 states with exclusive separate classes for public/private
4 states that have partial separate classes for public/private

There is also the following
Colorado voted down a private school success advancement system
Georgia removed a multiplier because it was shown to have no effect on the titles won by private schools
Kansas hasn't been able to pass any of their proposals
Maine is on record as opposing the separation of publics and privates
Mississippi school administrators failed to ban private schools from joining the association
Nebraska has defeated all proposals
Ohio hasn't been able to pass anything for the last 3 years
Oregon rejected a proposal in 2012
Pennsylvania stopped a move to split the classes in 2000
35 states have no multiplier or separation of public and privates.

It is that time of year to fire up these discussions

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:

Originally posted by Vroom_C14:

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
There are not a lot of states with separate classes for public and private, nor are there a great deal of multiplier states. Maybe the state should look at removing special ed students removed from the BEDS since that seems to be the point that keeps getting made again and again and again aaaaand again. Soon to follow is the reduced lunch argument and then this will evolve into the recruiting topic.

Hola Cid!

Found this interesting -
Alabama multiplier in effect
Arkansas multiplier in effect
Actually no multiplier, non publics are just moved up a class

Georgia (seperates priv\pub in smaller schools)
"Ended a 1.5 multiplier formula for private schools in 2008 after eight years. Data showed that the multiplier did not impact the percentage of private schools winning state titles[/B]. Separation of private and public schools in the state's small-school division was approved in 2012."




Illinois multiplier in effect
Would apply to every school in Iowa since every school is non boundaried(open enrollment)

Connecticut mulitiplier in effect
In basketball only

Florida (seperates prv\pub in select sports - football is one).
"Has separation of private and public schools in select sports among small schools."

Indiana (uses success advancement based on postseason play)
Kansas (has a proposal on the floor to seperate prv\pub).
Nothing yet

Marlyand - seperate tournaments for priv and pub
Minnesota uses a reverse multiplier based on # of students in activity and Free Reduced lunch.
Mississippi - privates compete in a independent association against teams from LA and AR.
"The state association has 13 private schools. A group of school administrators failed to ban private schools from joining the state association in 2013. Other privates compete in an independent state association that also features schools from Arkansas and Louisiana."

Missouri - multiplier (1.35 to priv, 2.0 for single sex schools).
Nevada - point system based on success is used to move teams up\down every two years.
New Jersey - prv\pub have own tournaments and multiple classfications.
"Some sports bring multiple state champions together to create a Tournament of Champions."

New York - places prv based on past success up or down a class.
North Carolina has seperate associations for privates.
"There are also separate associations for independent and Christian schools."

South Carolina has a prv assocation and a combined (based on schools success).
"There is an independent school state association, but privates and publics also compete together in a separate association."


Tennessee Schools are split into 2 divisions. Div I for pub and prv that do not provide financial assistance and Div II for those that do provide financial assistance.
Texas seperate associations (prv pub play for seperate championships)
Virginia seperate associations ...

That is a shorthand version of the article linked.

Hola back,

Thought I would add a little detail to what you posted. So if my math is right I get the following

4 States with an across the board multiplier of which 1(Illinois) would apply to all Iowa high schools
2 states with a limited multiplier

4 states with exclusive separate classes for public/private
4 states that have partial separate classes for public/private

There is also the following
Colorado voted down a private school success advancement system
Georgia removed a multiplier because it was shown to have no effect on the titles won by private schools
Kansas hasn't been able to pass any of their proposals
Maine is on record as opposing the separation of publics and privates
Mississippi school administrators failed to ban private schools from joining the association
Nebraska has defeated all proposals
Ohio hasn't been able to pass anything for the last 3 years
Oregon rejected a proposal in 2012
Pennsylvania stopped a move to split the classes in 2000
35 states have no multiplier or separation of public and privates.

It is that time of year to fire up these discussions

So if I use Obama calculations and deduct 35 from the total number of states, then half the country uses multipliers!

Yes it is that time of year - let it rain!!!

 

[gg2224]

I know we like to debate on the private vs public dimension, but I think it's really the wrong question. Success seems to be more closely tied to the overall affluence of a district rather than it's private/public designation.

Consider the following:

There have been 70 11-player champions since 2000 with 140 championship game participants (source: IAHSAA).

Those 140 participants hailed from just 45 different counties in Iowa (45%)

Of those games for both public and private schools:

70 (50%) of the appearances were by teams that came from just 17 (17%) of the 99 counties
33 (47%) of the championships were won by teams that came from just 11 (11%) counties

Public Only

55 (50%) of the 111 non-private school appearances were by teams from 16 counties (16%)
22 (42%) of the championships won by public schools were from teams in 11 counties.

What do these 'championship' counties have in common?

Families who live in these 17 counties have an average family income that ranks in the 75th percentile for the state of Iowa (source: 2010 Census)

What about the Private Schools?

Since 2000, private schools have gone 18-11 in 29 appearances for 11-man championships. They are 9-7 over the last 5 years.

Private schools residing in 5 counties at the 75% percentile threshold went 11-4.

Private schools do have an impact in the championship game numbers, but they are not the sole or the largest driving force behind "inequities" we see in the outcomes.




__________________________


Method:


Assembled the 140 championship participant school districts for classes A through 4A from the IAHSAA Statbook. Designated champions and runner-upsIdentified Private vs. Public districts (a possible source of error, I eyeballed this)Cross referenced county with school district location (a possible source of error, some schools reside in more than one county, I tried to use the high school location)Cross referenced county with US Census data 2010: Median Family Income for Iowa Counties Assembled results
Let me know if you find any errors and I'll do my best to correct the numbers.

 

[gg2224]

I'm against any attempt to engineer equal outcomes for three reasons.

First, we're never good at it. All we end up doing is reshuffling the pieces on the chessboard, usually creating more problems than we hope to solve. I think the numbers above show that tinkering with the BEDS number really doesn't shift the balance of power very much. Keep in mind, for every 3A private school you push up a class with a fake number, you're likely going to get a for real 4A school pushed back to 3A.

Second where do we stop? . You might not like having to go through a private school to get to state, but I might not like playing a team that's more than twice my school's size. Maybe someone else thinks it's unfair for an opponent to have a veteran coach when his team has a rookie. Cue the slippery slope.

Third, I disagree with assumption that the class structure needs fixed on principal alone. If, football (and HS athletics for that matter) was ever only about the numbers, then explain to me how Gilbert, new to 3A with a BEDS of 320 wins a game against a 3A school with a BEDS = 639 (Gilbert 42, Newton 29).

It's because it's rarely about the numbers. It's about suiting up and putting your skills and talents on the line against your opponent.



Edited for format...
This post was edited on 9/29 5:21 PM by gg2224

 

[DogBoyRy]

GG

Great stuff!!

Went to a public school myself. Saw the old Dav. Central teams, the Morgan IC West teams, Bett, ICHigh. Hate the West side of the state (but with some respect). Don't want to hear the private crap on a multiplier.

Love what Dav Assumption in the past and recently CRXavier has done with amazing small # of students compared to the big boys.. It's a disipline and toughness game and they get it..

The real stat eveyone misses is how the smaller schools in 4a have no chance except 1 of 20 years and unless private.

In fact to make it to the dome is rare in 4a unless private or one of the top 10-15 in size...

 

[Vroom_C14]

 

[gg2224]

Good points. The data does seem to back you up.

Since 2000, just 10 teams have competed for the 4A championship (see teams below w/latest BEDS number in parenthesis).

You are correct, they all are private schools or in the top 1/2 in 4A enrollment rank based on the latest BEDS numbers (1061 is the midpoint BEDS enrollment in 4A football)

Also, in 26 of 28 championship appearances, the schools are from counties in the top ten of median family income. Technically, Bettendorf's 5 appearances represent Scott county (17th), but if the city of Bettendorf respresented a county, their median family income would put them in the top 5 counties when compared to the rest of the state.

As stated earlier, I accept that some teams have inherent advantages over others. Whether it's program history, school enrollment, coaching, athletic families, or even the benefit of affluence or a private institution, how do you truly engineer a system that is equitable/acceptable for all?

Again, the answer is you can't and you shouldn't. There is something important for student athletes to learn about competing against the odds.
______________________________________



Ankeny* (988+926 = 1914)
Bettendorf (1190)Cedar Falls (1176)
Cedar Rapids- Washington (1061)

Dowling Catholic (1085)
Iowa City High (1141)

Marshalltown (1066)

Southeast Polk (1502)

Valley (2140)

Xavier (530)

*combined BEDS for Centenial and Ankeny since their appearances were before the split.
Edited for formatting
This post was edited on 9/30 11:57 AM by gg2224

 

[Ford26]

ahh, just never mind
This post was edited on 9/30 5:42 PM by NorseHorse

 

[cruhawk]

Originally posted by gg2224:
I'm against any attempt to engineer equal outcomes for three reasons.

First, we're never good at it. All we end up doing is reshuffling the pieces on the chessboard, usually creating more problems than we hope to solve. I think the numbers above show that tinkering with the BEDS number really doesn't shift the balance of power very much. Keep in mind, for every 3A private school you push up a class with a fake number, you're likely going to get a for real 4A school pushed back to 3A.

Second where do we stop? . You might not like having to go through a private school to get to state, but I might not like playing a team that's more than twice my school's size. Maybe someone else thinks it's unfair for an opponent to have a veteran coach when his team has a rookie. Cue the slippery slope.

Third, I disagree with assumption that the class structure needs fixed on principal alone. If, football (and HS athletics for that matter) was ever only about the numbers, then explain to me how Gilbert, new to 3A with a BEDS of 320 wins a game against a 3A school with a BEDS = 639 (Gilbert 42, Newton 29).

It's because it's rarely about the numbers. It's about suiting up and putting your skills and talents on the line against your opponent.



Edited for format...

This post was edited on 9/29 5:21 PM by gg2224

Or, put another way....socialism doesn't work.

 

[bumblebee]

Originally posted by PNation:
It's going to be really great see Xavier beat its 3A competition 70-0 each game, I am sorry but what a bunch of cowards both at Xavier, and in Boone.

Regis HS, one of Xavier's predecessors, played primarily a 4A schedule for DECADES

CR Xavier followed that up in the MVC.....and competed very well against 4A schools

Cowards? are you this ignorant? They have manned-up for years

It isn't CR Xavier's fault the 3A public schools can't compete. Cry me a river. You children are jealous little worms
This post was edited on 9/30 11:14 PM by bumblebee

 

[bumblebee]

Hilarious reading the butthurt posts here regarding CR Xavier. They manned-up for 15 years, and are now going to an appropriate class.

The have been one of the most successful high schools in the state the last 17 years--with multiple state titles in a variety of sports

too bad...so sad. You public school hayseeds need to get over it

 

[cidhawkeye]

City is showing that there may be more involved in this debate than location.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by bumblebee:

Originally posted by PNation:
It's going to be really great see Xavier beat its 3A competition 70-0 each game, I am sorry but what a bunch of cowards both at Xavier, and in Boone.

Regis HS, one of Xavier's predecessors, played primarily a 4A schedule for DECADES

CR Xavier followed that up in the MVC.....and competed very well against 4A schools

Cowards? are you this ignorant? They have manned-up for years

It isn't CR Xavier's fault the 3A public schools can't compete. Cry me a river. You children are jealous little worms


This post was edited on 9/30 11:14 PM by bumblebee

So Xavier lost their man-card?

Yes the 3A schools are going to have to step up (and by a lot) to compete against Xavier and Assumption (as the West has found out with Heelan).

My guess is that if there isn't a lot of competition with the Public 3A schools against the Priv 3A's, the State will try and do something.



This post was edited on 10/1 10:16 AM by Vroom_C14