1 tourney for all teams
- Thread starter Kraftwerk
- Start date
Do you want to see first round games of Iowa City West vs English Valleys, and Southeast Polk vs Twin Cedars?
It won't work. Everyone wants a trophy.
QUOTE="Kraftwerk, post: 181829, member: 6204"]1 tourney is best for all teams that playing hoops. It would take 1 week about
But too many deer on the road[/QUOTE]
QUOTE="Kraftwerk, post: 181829, member: 6204"]1 tourney is best for all teams that playing hoops. It would take 1 week about
But too many deer on the road[/QUOTE]
I think the last time a small Iowa school won in a one class tourney was in 1960 when Sioux Center was the champion. Lots of tall Dutch boys played on that team. Basketball has changed a lot since those days. I'm not an expert, but I think that, in this modern era, those states that have a one or very-few class system have some small town teams that are actually very big schools. Texas and Indiana come to mind. You can't find the town on the map, but the high school has 3000 students from all over! They just keep adding on to the building. (Sorta like Valley of West Des Moines-- the town has 66,000 residents and there is one public school.)
It would be interesting and fun to see how far some 1A or 2A school could make it in 2020 in a one-class tournament, but it is simply not fair for a school of 100 kids to play a 4A team like IC West or WDM Valley where they have more students in one school than the small school has in their entire conference, or maybe on their entire schedule!!
And big city schools also have open enrollment, lots of diversity, and more transfers. The public school teachers in my family are sometimes amazed when their school gets twenty transfers a year. Even if only one or two of these kids play sports, that's a little new "blood' many years. Even if a tiny school has a once-in-a-generation star player and a stellar coach, it's hard to go up against some of the larger schools where a shot is taken and then a couple of leapers literally play above the rim, tipping and tipping the ball until it goes in. I saw two games like that in Dubuque so far this year where it seemed like the winning team just got off probably double the shots of the losing team. (Emphasis on "seemed like"). You just don't see that that in small town ball, no matter how good the team seems to be.
We'd better stay with the system we have now, in which despite its faults, the good teams have a chance to win in their classes and not be completely overwhelmed like some of those 72-0 football games or 93-18 basketball games that we see in the sports results.
Games in small towns between two more evenly-matched teams have a special wonderfulness about them that is a source of city pride and a terrific experience for the players and coaches. Sure, losing seasons are hard to swallow for some, but that's true at all levels. Just look at our website. Our small school fans and posters are very proud when their teams win, and they deserve to have their seasons end with a fighting chance to win it all once in a while.
It would be interesting and fun to see how far some 1A or 2A school could make it in 2020 in a one-class tournament, but it is simply not fair for a school of 100 kids to play a 4A team like IC West or WDM Valley where they have more students in one school than the small school has in their entire conference, or maybe on their entire schedule!!
And big city schools also have open enrollment, lots of diversity, and more transfers. The public school teachers in my family are sometimes amazed when their school gets twenty transfers a year. Even if only one or two of these kids play sports, that's a little new "blood' many years. Even if a tiny school has a once-in-a-generation star player and a stellar coach, it's hard to go up against some of the larger schools where a shot is taken and then a couple of leapers literally play above the rim, tipping and tipping the ball until it goes in. I saw two games like that in Dubuque so far this year where it seemed like the winning team just got off probably double the shots of the losing team. (Emphasis on "seemed like"). You just don't see that that in small town ball, no matter how good the team seems to be.
We'd better stay with the system we have now, in which despite its faults, the good teams have a chance to win in their classes and not be completely overwhelmed like some of those 72-0 football games or 93-18 basketball games that we see in the sports results.
Games in small towns between two more evenly-matched teams have a special wonderfulness about them that is a source of city pride and a terrific experience for the players and coaches. Sure, losing seasons are hard to swallow for some, but that's true at all levels. Just look at our website. Our small school fans and posters are very proud when their teams win, and they deserve to have their seasons end with a fighting chance to win it all once in a while.
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I mean......it could work. You just don't have small class schools play larger class schools until "State".
From there it's just like how any State bracket is paired, or used to be paired. I don't think we could have coaches from 4 different classes come together and pick the seedings for every team.
But in all honesty.......why would any of you want this?
Oh cool, you can say your team was the absolute best in the state. Who cares.......
We have and need Class sizes for a reason. Deal with it.
From there it's just like how any State bracket is paired, or used to be paired. I don't think we could have coaches from 4 different classes come together and pick the seedings for every team.
But in all honesty.......why would any of you want this?
Oh cool, you can say your team was the absolute best in the state. Who cares.......
We have and need Class sizes for a reason. Deal with it.
I would like to see a Tournament of Champions with all 4 Class State Champions playing for an overall Championship.
They couldn’t the previous 2 years. I believe that GVC only lost by 10 to IC West in IC last year in mid season
I think a 1A champion could beat a 2A champion; a 2A once in a while would beat a 3A; and a 3A could beat a 4A. The 3A Dubuque Wahlert champion beat the 4A champion Iowa City team in Iowa City in 2008 (Eric May vs. Mike Gatens); and again in 2014 3A champ Wahlert beat 4A champ Iowa City West (Pemsl, Till vs. C. McCaffery, W. Lohaus)-- both victories during the same championship seasons. I'm sure there are a lot of examples in 1A and 2A, but they have to be championship teams in the same season. The big question is: are there any examples of a champion beating a champion two or three classes above, in the same season?
The first example that comes to my mind is in 2013 when Boyden Hull won the championship in 1A and Sheldon won 2A. BH beat Sheldon in both of their meetings during the regular season.
In 2005 MOC and Unity both won the state championships but I’m not sure if they met in the regular season.
There might be some other examples in those years Western was winning a lot but I can’t think of any for sure right now.
In 2005 MOC and Unity both won the state championships but I’m not sure if they met in the regular season.
There might be some other examples in those years Western was winning a lot but I can’t think of any for sure right now.
I’ll admit this is unrealistic and unfair, especially to the 1A 2A schools which there are so many of. Fun to think about though
year in and year out..it would not fair....take a team like west demoines valley, i went to harlan to school, and i wonder if there best player would be a 2nd teamer on a school like that....sure, only 5 players play, and maybe once in a blue moon a smaller school might stack up against a larger school, but not too often..i now live in phoenix, and it definitely would not work down here ...there are pobably 50 or 60 schools down here bigger than valley
Class 2A Western Christian would have competed with most 4A schools during their run a few years ago.
This is unreasonable I admit, but would be entertaining to say the least. Even in college, often the same teams are making final four runs but it’s the small school Cinderella that make it fun. Ultimately not enough 1A - 2A schools would get invites. Maybe you could switch to conference champ gets an auto bid.
It'd be better to see a bracket for 1A and 2A and another bracket for 3A and 4A. I think thatd be the best.
There's only two ways this works:
-Most obvious option is a "Tournament of Champions" between the 4 State winners. Pair by record, first, then opponents' record, and then margin of victory in the Finals if it comes to that tiebreaker to decide the Semifinal matchups.
Make it a Friday/Saturday the week after State, and host it at Hilton Coliseum.
-Option #2 would be a bit more divisive.
You take the 8 teams that made "State" from each class, and they would still be paired according to Class but that first round would become "Super Sub-state", and be played at neutral sites.
The remaining 16 teams then would qualify for the 16-team State playoffs at Wells Fargo Arena, and all teams would be top-seeded, much the way the Girls 6-on-6 used to do it, when they had their 16-team tournament.
There you could have the lowest remaining 1A seed playing the highest remaining 4A, etc etc on down.
Or, if you want to be as fair as possible to 1A and 2A teams, just use overall record, and then opponents record, etc to determine seedings.
I will illustrate what this could look like, a little later, but for now, that would be my idea.
-Most obvious option is a "Tournament of Champions" between the 4 State winners. Pair by record, first, then opponents' record, and then margin of victory in the Finals if it comes to that tiebreaker to decide the Semifinal matchups.
Make it a Friday/Saturday the week after State, and host it at Hilton Coliseum.
-Option #2 would be a bit more divisive.
You take the 8 teams that made "State" from each class, and they would still be paired according to Class but that first round would become "Super Sub-state", and be played at neutral sites.
The remaining 16 teams then would qualify for the 16-team State playoffs at Wells Fargo Arena, and all teams would be top-seeded, much the way the Girls 6-on-6 used to do it, when they had their 16-team tournament.
There you could have the lowest remaining 1A seed playing the highest remaining 4A, etc etc on down.
Or, if you want to be as fair as possible to 1A and 2A teams, just use overall record, and then opponents record, etc to determine seedings.
I will illustrate what this could look like, a little later, but for now, that would be my idea.
So for this second option, here are the 16 teams (or 4 semifinalists from each Class) from last year's State tournament that would comprise this new Super State Tournament.
1A-
#1 Grand View Christian (24-1)
#4 Montezuma (22-1)
#6 Remsen St. Mary's (20-6)
#7 Alburnett (19-5)
2A-
#1 North Linn (24-0)
#2 South Hamilton (22-1)
#3 Boyden-Hull (23-2)
#4 Van Meter (22-2)
3A-
#1 Norwalk (21-4)
#3 Oskaloosa (17-5)
#4 Clear Lake (24-0)
#7 Winterset (17-6)
4A-
#1 Waukee (21-2)
#2 North Scott, Eldridge (23-1)
#3 Cedar Falls (19-3)
#5 Dubuque Senior (18-3)
----------------------------‐‐-‐-‐‐‐‐
From there, like I said, you can do one of two ways: Reseed Highest 4A to lowest 1A.....or Reseed all together based on record, seed, opponents record, etc. I'll show the pairings for both ways below.
(Option 1)-
Super State First Round:
#1 Waukee (4A) vs #16 Alburnett (1A)
#8 Montezuma (1A) vs #9 Cedar Falls (4A)
#4 Grand View Christian (1A) vs #13 Dubuque Senior (4A)
#5 North Scott (4A) vs #12 Remsen-St. Mary's (1A)
#2 Norwalk (3A) vs #15 Van Meter (2A)
#7 South Hamilton (2A) vs #10 Clear Lake (3A)
#3 North Linn (2A) vs #14 Winterset (3A)
#6 Oskaloosa (3A) vs #11 Boyden-Hull (2A)
(Option 2)-
Super State First Round:
#1 Clear Lake (24-0) vs #16 Winterset (17-6)
#8 Van Meter (22-2) vs #9 Waukee (21-2)
#4 North Scott (23-1) vs #13 Oskaloosa (17-5)
#5 South Hamilton (22-1) vs #12 Norwalk (21-4)
#2 North Linn (24-0) vs #15 Remsen St. Mary's (20-6)
#7 Boyden-Hull (23-2) vs #10 Cedar Falls (19-3)
#3 Grand View Christian (24-1) vs #14 Alburnett (19-5)
#6 Montezuma (22-1) vs #11 Dubuque Senior (18-3)
1A-
#1 Grand View Christian (24-1)
#4 Montezuma (22-1)
#6 Remsen St. Mary's (20-6)
#7 Alburnett (19-5)
2A-
#1 North Linn (24-0)
#2 South Hamilton (22-1)
#3 Boyden-Hull (23-2)
#4 Van Meter (22-2)
3A-
#1 Norwalk (21-4)
#3 Oskaloosa (17-5)
#4 Clear Lake (24-0)
#7 Winterset (17-6)
4A-
#1 Waukee (21-2)
#2 North Scott, Eldridge (23-1)
#3 Cedar Falls (19-3)
#5 Dubuque Senior (18-3)
----------------------------‐‐-‐-‐‐‐‐
From there, like I said, you can do one of two ways: Reseed Highest 4A to lowest 1A.....or Reseed all together based on record, seed, opponents record, etc. I'll show the pairings for both ways below.
(Option 1)-
Super State First Round:
#1 Waukee (4A) vs #16 Alburnett (1A)
#8 Montezuma (1A) vs #9 Cedar Falls (4A)
#4 Grand View Christian (1A) vs #13 Dubuque Senior (4A)
#5 North Scott (4A) vs #12 Remsen-St. Mary's (1A)
#2 Norwalk (3A) vs #15 Van Meter (2A)
#7 South Hamilton (2A) vs #10 Clear Lake (3A)
#3 North Linn (2A) vs #14 Winterset (3A)
#6 Oskaloosa (3A) vs #11 Boyden-Hull (2A)
(Option 2)-
Super State First Round:
#1 Clear Lake (24-0) vs #16 Winterset (17-6)
#8 Van Meter (22-2) vs #9 Waukee (21-2)
#4 North Scott (23-1) vs #13 Oskaloosa (17-5)
#5 South Hamilton (22-1) vs #12 Norwalk (21-4)
#2 North Linn (24-0) vs #15 Remsen St. Mary's (20-6)
#7 Boyden-Hull (23-2) vs #10 Cedar Falls (19-3)
#3 Grand View Christian (24-1) vs #14 Alburnett (19-5)
#6 Montezuma (22-1) vs #11 Dubuque Senior (18-3)
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Option 2 would be very interesting... crazy how clear lake went from a 10 seed to a 1 seed in the different options... good work by the way.
The difference with Clear Lake (and others), regarding that first option, all comes down to how teams are seeded within their Class. Clear Lake was pegged as the 3rd highest seed in 3A, therefore that's why they got the #10 spot in Option 1.
Option 1 would be a cake walk for the 4A schools most years. Even as good as GVC was last year, GVC might have a shot with Dbq Sr, but I'd think Sr would probably win.
Option 2 or simply having 1A/2A then 3A/4A match ups would be best for opening rounds.
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I do think Option 2 is the best if you want a true single class state tournament. Like I said, some things would be a little different with regards to how teams are seeded prior to this Super State tourney, when they're still playing within their individual classes.Option 1 would be a cake walk for the 4A schools most years. Even as good as GVC was last year, GVC might have a shot with Dbq Sr, but I'd think Sr would probably win.
(I'd say most would expect 4A to show out the best in such a tournament most years anyway. This first option is more for the elitists who feel 4A should get the more favorable matchups/preferrential treatment early on, and let 2A and 3A teams cannibalize themselves.
Option 2 would or simply having 1A/2A then 3A/4A match ups would be best for opening rounds.
I don't think they'd still have the 8 coaches from each class get together and seed the teams out like they did for this example (which was last year's State tournament).
Everything would still run the same as it does now, except then once you get the final four teams from each class, that's when you combine them.
I think 16 is the right number because 32 is just too many for a single "State tournament" if you're wanting it at one location. (even though, technically, that's how many play at State every year if you combine all Classes....)
And if you go any further than that, (say you take the final two teams from each class) then you might as well just make it a tournament of champions, and let those final two teams play for their respective Class State championships.
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