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why is Iowa districts so averse to giant high schools?

DSMan

Varsity
Nov 12, 2006
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The biggest example of this is Valley High School, with around 2800 students and detractors say it gives them an unfair advantage. But many other states have dozens of high schools as big or bigger than Valley. Valley if anything is an exception rather than the rule. Even Johnston, which isn't that big, is breaking up in two in a few years.

Also, from a political angle - wouldn't having fewer buildings prevent bureaucratic bloat (ie less principles, less administrators)?
 
This is the first I've heard about Johnston splitting up. I know Waukee is laying the ground work for a split, but that district's population as skyrocketed in the last 10 years and isn't slowing down (they've got something like 700-800 kids per class coming up through elementary right now).
 
I think the main reason you don't see the giant schools is due to the fact that Iowa is a rural state without the major urban areas that states like Texas have. Your question of administrators has some truth to it, but many schools would still have multiple administrators in the form of vice principals or Dean of students so there wouldn't be that much money trimmed
 
Larger schools sometimes means fewer opportunities for the masses in some sports (and other extra-curricular activities). There are plenty of kids at larger schools that could play varsity in any sport at a smaller school. Basketball probably has the narrowest bottle neck of any sport past the junior year when it comes to student interest vs. allowable participation. There seems to be plenty of opportunities at the lower levels for most sports in larger schools of Iowa but once they get to their junior year it starts getting pretty competitive for playing time especially in the ball game sports. On the flipside, some larger schools are consistently never heard from in any sport which I find rather sad. Not sure what to attribute that to.

Many kids that don't stick with it through their senior year could probably play varsity for a lot of the other schools in the state. IMO, not having Mega-Schools helps in this regard among many other logistics when it comes to developing comprehensive athletic programs and building a school community vs. a place where a lot of people congregate for a few hours a day and have no real connection to their school.

How many empty gymnasiums/football stadiums are there around the state in the larger schools on a weekly basis? Many smaller schools reflect that school activities are an important part of their community and even if they aren't any good at whatever sport, there is always a lot of pride and connection made in support of their kids. A Friday night BB game in a smaller school always seemed to be better attended than at a larger school even at those that are always competitive in the regular season.

There are about 3 different classifications of a school/athletic department across the state that I visualize;

1. Schools with history and tradition and always competitive and have enthusiastic support with resources.

2. Schools with everything you would need in place but don't find a way to get over the top for whatever reason.

3. Schools that are not always a positive environment that are tough to get moving in the right direction for whatever reason.

The size of the school population never really seemed to be what's at the heart of the first classification. I don't think it's fair to put all the blame on parents or culture. I do feel like school leadership is a major factor in the success or failure in how the community interacts with and supports their programs regardless of the size of the school. Given time, I've seen some pretty amazing leaders build the right environment in some of the harshest conditions so I know it can be done. It's those dynamic leaders that are committed to a community for the duration of their career that make this happen. Not the ones that are just looking at a community as a stepping stone to a better situation. Like coaching, you do your best when you don't have the table set for you already. That's if you have a positive attitude toward what you are doing.
 
The more schools you have the more government employees you have the more tax monies come in... $$$
 
Huh? How does that work? You only have a set number of taxpayers at any given time. Building another school does not increase the number of taxpayers, it just diverts the money to the new school.
 
Originally posted by long-may-u-run:
Huh? How does that work? You only have a set number of taxpayers at any given time. Building another school does not increase the number of taxpayers, it just diverts the money to the new school.
It does increase what those people pay in taxes, though. That's why Des Moines' tax rate is higher than, say, Waukee's. Polk County has a ton of public schools, way more than Dallas County, so Polk residents pay a higher tax rate. Adding another school would increase the rate.

This post was edited on 5/29 6:17 PM by tm3308
 
Originally posted by On Wings of Eagles:

Larger schools sometimes means fewer opportunities for the masses in some sports (and other extra-curricular activities). There are plenty of kids at larger schools that could play varsity in any sport at a smaller school. Basketball probably has the narrowest bottle neck of any sport past the junior year when it comes to student interest vs. allowable participation. There seems to be plenty of opportunities at the lower levels for most sports in larger schools of Iowa but once they get to their junior year it starts getting pretty competitive for playing time especially in the ball game sports. On the flipside, some larger schools are consistently never heard from in any sport which I find rather sad. Not sure what to attribute that to.

Many kids that don't stick with it through their senior year could probably play varsity for a lot of the other schools in the state. IMO, not having Mega-Schools helps in this regard among many other logistics when it comes to developing comprehensive athletic programs and building a school community vs. a place where a lot of people congregate for a few hours a day and have no real connection to their school.

How many empty gymnasiums/football stadiums are there around the state in the larger schools on a weekly basis? Many smaller schools reflect that school activities are an important part of their community and even if they aren't any good at whatever sport, there is always a lot of pride and connection made in support of their kids. A Friday night BB game in a smaller school always seemed to be better attended than at a larger school even at those that are always competitive in the regular season.

There are about 3 different classifications of a school/athletic department across the state that I visualize;

1. Schools with history and tradition and always competitive and have enthusiastic support with resources.

2. Schools with everything you would need in place but don't find a way to get over the top for whatever reason.

3. Schools that are not always a positive environment that are tough to get moving in the right direction for whatever reason.

The size of the school population never really seemed to be what's at the heart of the first classification. I don't think it's fair to put all the blame on parents or culture. I do feel like school leadership is a major factor in the success or failure in how the community interacts with and supports their programs regardless of the size of the school. Given time, I've seen some pretty amazing leaders build the right environment in some of the harshest conditions so I know it can be done. It's those dynamic leaders that are committed to a community for the duration of their career that make this happen. Not the ones that are just looking at a community as a stepping stone to a better situation. Like coaching, you do your best when you don't have the table set for you already. That's if you have a positive attitude toward what you are doing.
A big part of the deal at smaller schools, whether they're competitive or not, is that they are in smaller communities. In those "everybody knows everybody" environments, people will come out to support the kids (even if they don't have kids of their own in school), simply because they know the kids who are playing. At some 4A schools, you don't even know all the people in your class, much less the entire school. You could easily meet a dozen new people every day for weeks, if not longer. It's tougher to drum up serious support when the players are total strangers to so many others in the school district.

As for why some large schools never seem to have success in any sports, most of that comes down to resources. The DSM city schools can't hope to compete with the suburban metro schools in terms of facilities, etc. The money just isn't there. Sure, they'll compete from time to time, but they're usually pretty special instances (DSM North basketball, DSM East baseball, Lincoln football in the Bernstine/Robinson days, etc.). I'm still relatively new to the metro area, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only consistently strong city school program I can think of is Roosevelt's girls track team.

The Council Bluffs schools suffer from a general lack of talent. SW Iowa struggles to compete in most sports, regardless of class, with a few exceptions like CBSA (in a few sports). Other schools down there have runs of maybe 5 years or so before falling back (Lenox football/baseball comes to mind). It's just not a very talent-rich portion of the state, south of I-80 and west of I-35. Honestly, the south central and southeast portions of the state aren't all that strong, either. I don't feel like going through the numbers, but I would bet you that a big majority of the state champions from every sport come from schools north of/right on I-80.

The schools on that kind of stand alone in the CIML (Ames, Mason City, Fort Dodge, Marshalltown, Ottumwa) tend to struggle in comparison to the metro schools, IMO, because they are isolated. Whether you believe it's recruiting or not, transfers between the metro schools tend to stack the suburb schools. Kids are transferring to better schools that are just across town. They aren't transferring to schools that are 30+ miles away. That doesn't mean those other schools can't have a ton of success, but it's usually only when a special group comes through like Barnes/McDermott, Straub/Kwah-Mensah/Shane/Brammer, etc. They don't typically build consistently strong programs like Valley, Dowling, etc.
 
The comment regarding less people coming out to support the kids at big schools may be true at some big schools, but others have very large turnouts for games. I've been attending SEP games (football, wrestling, boys/girls basketball, baseball/softball) for more than 10 years and I can state from my experience that the SEP community comes out in large numbers, both home and away, to support their kids. I've been to rival girls basketball games vs Ankeny where the crowd was in excess of 2500, football games vs Dowling with 8000+ and wrestling meets where attendance was higher than Iowa State's own meets. At the 2013 girls basketball state championship between SEP and Dowling, the crowd for both teams was so large that they had to open the upper deck at Wells Fargo Arena... which I was told was a first for a girls state championship game. I remember when we played a football game vs Valley in the dome back around 2006. SEP fans filled their side of the stadium and spilled over onto the other side (the dome holds 16,000 plus).

There are big schools that do not enjoy this kind of support, but from what I've seen in games around the CIML, teams like SEP, Valley, Dowling, Waukee, Ankeny and others do enjoy a lot of support. There are plenty of fans like myself who continue to attend games well after our kids have graduated. I actually grew up in a 2A school and we never had community support of the scale that I've seen at SEP.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that from my experience, the bigger schools can and often do draw large crowds of support for their kids. Gyms and stadiums are far from sitting empty.
 
I didn't mean to suggest that none of the big schools enjoy strong support. I know many, if not all, of the suburban CIML schools have large crowds at most sporting events. But those schools are also typically pretty successful. What would the crowds look like at Valley if they were only winning 2-4 games every football season? That's one of the differences between the large schools and the small communities; smaller schools (in many cases) get good crowds regardless of the team's performance on the field. I don't know if the large schools would enjoy similar support if they were perennial cellar dwellers.
 
I was always amazed at the state softball tournament. THe stands would be packed for the small schools and fro some of the 4A schools there would seem to be like 20 people in the stands.
 
Originally posted by PNation:
I think the main reason you don't see the giant schools is due to the fact that Iowa is a rural state without the major urban areas that states like Texas have. Your question of administrators has some truth to it, but many schools would still have multiple administrators in the form of vice principals or Dean of students so there wouldn't be that much money trimmed
I'm not sure about the administrator bloat theory. Most schools/districts try to use a student/admin ratio of some sort. Splitting schools might lead to an extra admin, but overall the district is going to be very mindful of this to keep costs down.
 
Originally posted by Vroom_C14:

The more schools you have the more government employees you have the more tax monies come in... $$$
Not necessarily. Public schools are funded on a per pupil basis so it really doesn't mean more employees. Actually, the per pupil system limits the number of employees because resources are limited.
 
Originally posted by tm3308:

Originally posted by long-may-u-run:
Huh? How does that work? You only have a set number of taxpayers at any given time. Building another school does not increase the number of taxpayers, it just diverts the money to the new school.
It does increase what those people pay in taxes, though. That's why Des Moines' tax rate is higher than, say, Waukee's. Polk County has a ton of public schools, way more than Dallas County, so Polk residents pay a higher tax rate. Adding another school would increase the rate.

This post was edited on 5/29 6:17 PM by tm3308
wrong again. The tax rate has more to do with the tax base. industry vs. residential. the more industry the lower the tax rate.
 
Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but Johnston looked into splitting into two high schools a year or two ago. After all of the meetings, they determined they would not have the future growth (like Ankeny or Waukee) to justify having two separate high schools.

Growing up in a smaller school and seeing all of the opportunies I had, I would agree that splitting up a very large high school has it's merits. I think Ankeny doing it makes a lot of sense. Creating two schools provides more spots to fill for not only sports, but also for other area such as band, chorus, school plays, leadership opportunities (student council, class officers), etc. Each of those areas kids learn valuable skills they can apply later on in life.
 
Originally posted by Roman_Gabriel:
Originally posted by tm3308:

Originally posted by long-may-u-run:
Huh? How does that work? You only have a set number of taxpayers at any given time. Building another school does not increase the number of taxpayers, it just diverts the money to the new school.
It does increase what those people pay in taxes, though. That's why Des Moines' tax rate is higher than, say, Waukee's. Polk County has a ton of public schools, way more than Dallas County, so Polk residents pay a higher tax rate. Adding another school would increase the rate.

This post was edited on 5/29 6:17 PM by tm3308
wrong again. The tax rate has more to do with the tax base. industry vs. residential. the more industry the lower the tax rate.
It's actually a combination of both of your posts.
 
Another thing that DSM has that Waukee (and other metro cities) doesn't have is a high amount of tax exempt property: the capital complex, Polk County, Drake and other colleges, hospitals, more churches, etc. All of the roads and sewers that run through those properties and police and fire protection have to be paid for by somebody: property owners.
 
just as an FYI, I made a mistake when I mentioned Johnston getting a second high school. What I learned is that they are building a new high school just like SE Polk did a number of years ago and that what is currently Johnston High will become a junior high or something like that.

Anyways, my opinion of when to split a school in half is when the school is split in half, that both schools are still the median 4A school in size (despite its reputation as a small school, Dowling is actually right at the median). So once a school hits 2800-2900 in four grades with signs of continued growth, that in my opinion is when to split it in half. Looking at the link below, one will find that the enrollment numbers in the lowest four grades in Waukee (740 in K, 775 in 1, 741 in 2 and 681 in 3) means that if the school was to be split up once these kids reach high school, that the two schools would still be around the median 4A size.



This post was edited on 7/16 1:10 PM by DSMan

link
 
Originally posted by DSMan:
The biggest example of this is Valley High School, with around 2800 students and detractors say it gives them an unfair advantage. But many other states have dozens of high schools as big or bigger than Valley. Valley if anything is an exception rather than the rule. Even Johnston, which isn't that big, is breaking up in two in a few years.

Also, from a political angle - wouldn't having fewer buildings prevent bureaucratic bloat (ie less principles, less administrators)?
Because it is supposed to be high school...not college.
 
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