Who moves onto the Dome?
- Thread starter LukeFeddersen
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This is the exact reason Todd Tharp and the state is a joke. In the east it should have been Kennedy vs City High, Washington vs North Scott, Jefferson vs PV, and Bett vs City West. The state didn't want three CR teams in the quarterfinals and two in the semifinals, yet Valley and Dowling are right next to each other and they don't play this round. You wonder why Valley, Dowling, and Bett make it to the semifinals every year. The state is shameful and it's not in athletics for the benefit of students or fairness for all schools that compete. It's extremely tilted for the schools mentioned above and you wonder why no schools can compete anymore in 4A. It's not right.
I'm not sure what you mean by "combine both sides." The state has been pretty clear that travel is the main concern when it comes to postseason pairings. They're not going to pair up Lewis Central with Bettendorf or Kennedy.
There isn't a formal east/west split any more. In 3A they're sending Pella - a central Iowa team traditionally considered "west" - to Davenport on Friday. Geography is the main driver, although one can always complain about the margins (a Valley-Dowling quarterfinal would be zero travel to couple with a Johnston-Lewis Central game, but perhap$ the $tate want$ to $ave Valley-Dowling for the Dome?).
There isn't a formal east/west split any more. In 3A they're sending Pella - a central Iowa team traditionally considered "west" - to Davenport on Friday. Geography is the main driver, although one can always complain about the margins (a Valley-Dowling quarterfinal would be zero travel to couple with a Johnston-Lewis Central game, but perhap$ the $tate want$ to $ave Valley-Dowling for the Dome?).
Why would Lewis Central play Johnston? Lewis Central was a #3 in District and Dowling is the only #1 district team remaining so Lewis Central goes to Dowling based on this. It makes perfect sense. Any way you cut it Lewis Central is traveling to Des Moines and what does it matter if Valley travels to Johnston or Williams Stadium? Distance wise Valley is 7.7 miles from Johnston and 9.1 Miles from Williams Stadium. Lewis Central to Valley would be the shortest distance for them. Quit complaining about the state favoring Valley and Dowling, they're not.
There might not be a formal east/west split, but there is. If (for instance) Dowling and Valley both win Friday they will be playing each other in the semi finals. Travel distance doesn't come in to play obviously but geographics do when teams get to the dome. I'd love to be wrong, but I doubt we'll ever see it play out different.
Seedings aren't supposed to make any difference at this point. The state doesn't bracket, so it's not automatic that the lowest remaining seed plays the highest one.
Look at 3A. The state is sending Pella - a district champion and 1 seed, if you want to put it that way - 140 miles east to play Davenport Assumption, another district champion. Meanwhile, they paired Norwalk and Dallas Center-Grimes, two second-place finishers (or 2 seeds, to use the semantic). They did that because the overall travel including both trips was less than sending either Norwalk or DCG over to Davenport and having the other one facing Pella.
Now in this case, you've got three metro teams plus Lewis Central, so there's really only one road trip involved. You could have matched LC with any of Valley/Dowling/Johnston. Plus, with three teams left from the same district, you're forced into a rematch no matter what.
So, okay. I'll buy what the IHSAA is selling in this case. You get a 3 vs a 1 and two 2s in the other game. Since travel really isn't a factor if you changed it up, I guess that works.
Look at 3A. The state is sending Pella - a district champion and 1 seed, if you want to put it that way - 140 miles east to play Davenport Assumption, another district champion. Meanwhile, they paired Norwalk and Dallas Center-Grimes, two second-place finishers (or 2 seeds, to use the semantic). They did that because the overall travel including both trips was less than sending either Norwalk or DCG over to Davenport and having the other one facing Pella.
Now in this case, you've got three metro teams plus Lewis Central, so there's really only one road trip involved. You could have matched LC with any of Valley/Dowling/Johnston. Plus, with three teams left from the same district, you're forced into a rematch no matter what.
So, okay. I'll buy what the IHSAA is selling in this case. You get a 3 vs a 1 and two 2s in the other game. Since travel really isn't a factor if you changed it up, I guess that works.
Oh, I totally agree there. The state could really shake things up in the semis if they felt like it - some folks were pondering last year in 3A that they might have paired Heelan and Xavier in the semis, with Creston and Pella in the other, just to guarantee there would be no all-private championship, but they went with an I-35 type of split, like usual.
I've thought they should try to pit the best remaining team with the weakest at the Dome and forget about the normal east/West split. If the apparent two best teams happen to be on the same side of the state, pair them against one from the other side in the semifinals. How nice would that have been at 4A back in the 80s when you could almost pen in IC High and Bettendorf in the East semifinal every year?
Agree with screwloose. I'd like to see them seed the final four teams in the dome. If that's too difficult to determine, then just crossover both games... East 1 vs West 2 and East 2 vs West 1. Then let the final be the surviving 2 teams. All teams travel to the dome so there is no real reason to keep it East vs East and West vs West. In no other sport do we force a East vs West game in the finals. If the East has the 2 best teams, then they should both be in the finals. Same for the West.
Why would we start playing East vs West in the semifinals? Can you imagine the uproar we'd get if we had a Valley-Dowling title game?
If the propose of the playoffs is to match the 2 best teams in the Championship Game then make it easy and do what's been suggested above: East 1 vs West 2 and East 2 vs West 1. Oh and by all means be prepared to have a West vs West championship game the majority of the time.
I don't think that the Championship is to match the 2 best teams. It's to match the best team from the East against the best team from the West.
I think Final 8 should be played in the Dome and they should seed them 1-8 like baseball and basketball.
> I don't think that the Championship is to match the 2 best teams. It's to match the best team from the East against the best team from the West.
should this apply to baseball, basketball, soccer, bowling, etc?
(no opinion, just exploring the viewpoint)
should this apply to baseball, basketball, soccer, bowling, etc?
(no opinion, just exploring the viewpoint)
I like the idea having the final 8 play each other based on seeding and get rid of the east/west dvision. Maybe play one round in DSM then the final 4 go to the dome. So keep the east/west divider until you get down to 8, then remove divider.
I do think it should apply to the other sports. Obviously, you can't with something like wrestling. But certainly baseball, basketball, and soccer. There is a natural split (with some outlying schools) between Des Moines/Missouri River and Cedar Falls/Cedar Rapids/Iowa City/Mississippi River. The population is roughly the same.
Rough estimates
Des Moines/CBluffs/Sioux City: 842,585
CF+Watt/CR/IC/Dav+Bett/Dub: 784,195
Rough estimates
Des Moines/CBluffs/Sioux City: 842,585
CF+Watt/CR/IC/Dav+Bett/Dub: 784,195
I totally disagree. State should be about getting the very best teams to the show and letting them battle it out. In my opinion, not doing so diminishes the state tournament. I want to see the best 2 teams playing in the final regardless of whether they are on opposite sides of the state or in neighboring towns.
I agree and that's what I was trying to say in my post, makes no sense to divide the state east/west once you get to the final 8, strap in on and let them play it out based on seeding 1-8 regardless of school location.
You all seem to be operating on the assumption that the playoffs are still split east/west by design. I do not think this is the case, not since the MVC/MAC went away and districts came to the east side in 2014.
In practice, I agree, it's seemed that east/west split has continued - but I would argue that's been more from necessity and geography than from some kind of formal decision from Boone. I could absolutely see a scenario where a Marshalltown or a Mason City might end up playing a Cedar Rapids or Waterloo/Cedar Falls team in the playoffs. Hypothetically, of course.
I know the other classes don't exactly work like 4A, but I think there was a great chance of seeing Waverly-Shell Rock (an "eastern" team) play Webster City (a "western" team) in the first round this year - had Dallas Center-Grimes taken care of Glenwood in Week 9 to win District 8. That would have meant Harlan could have played a Sioux City area team and allowed the Webster City/WSR match. Didn't happen, since Harlan ended up winning the district and having to play Creston, but ...
Prior to 2014, yes, the playoffs were split east/west by design. I don't think that's mandated any more, it just happens from the teams who qualify. Two years isn't a very large sample size, you know. As to what the IHSAA does in the semis, well ... they're just gonna do what they do. My guess is they'll keep the split out of familiarity and to keep people from complaining too much. But if they set up Kennedy-Valley and Bettendorf-Dowling, well, there's no reason they can't do that.
In practice, I agree, it's seemed that east/west split has continued - but I would argue that's been more from necessity and geography than from some kind of formal decision from Boone. I could absolutely see a scenario where a Marshalltown or a Mason City might end up playing a Cedar Rapids or Waterloo/Cedar Falls team in the playoffs. Hypothetically, of course.
I know the other classes don't exactly work like 4A, but I think there was a great chance of seeing Waverly-Shell Rock (an "eastern" team) play Webster City (a "western" team) in the first round this year - had Dallas Center-Grimes taken care of Glenwood in Week 9 to win District 8. That would have meant Harlan could have played a Sioux City area team and allowed the Webster City/WSR match. Didn't happen, since Harlan ended up winning the district and having to play Creston, but ...
Prior to 2014, yes, the playoffs were split east/west by design. I don't think that's mandated any more, it just happens from the teams who qualify. Two years isn't a very large sample size, you know. As to what the IHSAA does in the semis, well ... they're just gonna do what they do. My guess is they'll keep the split out of familiarity and to keep people from complaining too much. But if they set up Kennedy-Valley and Bettendorf-Dowling, well, there's no reason they can't do that.
You make a very valid point, Kid. The only thing that's a cockle burr in your shoestrings is that 4A has had a complaint for a definitive East/West split in the past, where the other classes haven't. That's where the whole eight from one group(MAC/MVC) and eight from the other group(CIML/MRC) started(which expanded to sixteen each). Each "half" of the state was split in qualifying and split when it eventually came to bracketing. The other classes have never had these issues that I've heard about.
I think the simple answer is the sample size. Wrestlers have 40-60 matches under their belt before state, and have wrestled the other top wrestlers or at a minimum have tons of common opponents. Baseball and Basketball have scheduled games across the state, so again you have tons of common opponents to help seed or rank. 4A football had maybe 3 games this year that would provide common opponents.
I'd like to see more crossover games in non-district, so that they could seed it. It would give the non-district games purpose. Those non-district games you're playing to protect the seeds on your side of the state! Until there are more common opponents then their has to be an east-west split.
Last, let's not call the west side of the state better either. Be honest, it's simply that Valley and Dowling are better. Obviously there's plenty of good teams in the west, but those are the two that title the pendulum. With the resources and numbers they each have, those two have eclipsed the rest of the state.
woodsiding, there were 11 games between the "East"(Districts 5-8) and "West"(Districts 1-4) this year. Not a great cross section, but a lot more than three. You're never going to see games involving teams along the rivers(6 on the Missouri and 11 on the Mississippi), at least I wouldn't think. So we're stuck with those 29 along the I-35 and I-380 corridors. They could integrate more, but it would be at the cost of metro area rivalries and those will never be sacrificed.
Here were this year's games...
IC High @ Ames
Waterloo East @ DM Hoover
WDM Valley @ IC West
Fort Dodge @ Waterloo East
Fort Dodge @ Waterloo West
Indianola @ Ottumwa
Marshalltown @ Waterloo East
Ottumwa @ Marshalltown
Mason City @ Cedar Falls
Waterloo West @ Mason City
Cedar Falls @ Urbandale
Here were this year's games...
IC High @ Ames
Waterloo East @ DM Hoover
WDM Valley @ IC West
Fort Dodge @ Waterloo East
Fort Dodge @ Waterloo West
Indianola @ Ottumwa
Marshalltown @ Waterloo East
Ottumwa @ Marshalltown
Mason City @ Cedar Falls
Waterloo West @ Mason City
Cedar Falls @ Urbandale
I said three because their were only three games that had matchups that would show us anything useful to use in ranking. For example, Fort Dodge beating two Waterloo schools, CF beating Mason City, or a Hoover Waterloo East match up don't really show us anything.
Short of going by straight geography to form districts, there's never going to be a lot of cross-over games. The biggest fix to getting more of these match-ups would be to putting all the Linn County teams in the same district, so all those games between them are protected. Continuing to put all the Black Hawk County teams in the same district needs to continue as well. But moving forward, it's going to be even more difficult getting these games when every team is only going to have two non-district games.
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