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Umpires

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IAHawkeyeBaseball

Aug 1, 2011
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I saw a lot of games this summer from 1A to 4A and I have noticed that the quality of high school umpires have diminished. At a couple of games that I was scouting/recruiting at, the umpires were horrible. They may look the part, with all the fancy, new equipment, but their one job is to stay invisible. Spectators should be able to watch a game and never know the umpires were there.

I have seen umpires: flinch on a really good curveballs, blink their eyes on a hard inside fastball, pop their feet on a low pitch in the dirt - that is why you have plate shoes - some of them, out of position, not trailing/help out their partner, coaching the players, talking with the players/coaches, talking with the fans, laughing/make fun of players/coaches, etc. I could go on about some of the things that I have saw this summer.

When umpires try to be apart of the game, that is why players, coaches, and spectators get frustrated and start to vent. And the umpires can give the schools/teams a bad sportsmanship rating with the state. Believe me that I have also seen some really good umpires, but when I dug a little deeper, some of the good umpires mostly pick and choose the games they work - the better teams/bigger matchups.

My question to everyone: Should teams be able to rate umpires, since umpires get to rate teams?

I understand that coaches could just abuse the system and blame the umpires, but I have to believe that some coaches know what they are doing and give a honest rating. Maybe the highest ratings get postseason assignments?
 
Originally posted by IAHawkeyeBaseball:
I saw a lot of games this summer from 1A to 4A and I have noticed that the quality of high school umpires have diminished. At a couple of games that I was scouting/recruiting at, the umpires were horrible. They may look the part, with all the fancy, new equipment, but their one job is to stay invisible. Spectators should be able to watch a game and never know the umpires were there.

I have seen umpires: flinch on a really good curveballs, blink their eyes on a hard inside fastball, pop their feet on a low pitch in the dirt - that is why you have plate shoes - some of them, out of position, not trailing/help out their partner, coaching the players, talking with the players/coaches, talking with the fans, laughing/make fun of players/coaches, etc. I could go on about some of the things that I have saw this summer.

When umpires try to be apart of the game, that is why players, coaches, and spectators get frustrated and start to vent. And the umpires can give the schools/teams a bad sportsmanship rating with the state. Believe me that I have also seen some really good umpires, but when I dug a little deeper, some of the good umpires mostly pick and choose the games they work - the better teams/bigger matchups.

My question to everyone: Should teams be able to rate umpires, since umpires get to rate teams?

I understand that coaches could just abuse the system and blame the umpires, but I have to believe that some coaches know what they are doing and give a honest rating. Maybe the highest ratings get postseason assignments?
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Firstly, there is already a system set up to rate umpires. The head coaches do this and that is how the playoff and state tourney assignments are done. So right there you made yourself sound like a self righteous pr**k. Secondly, the state can use more officials. If you think you can do it better than them then register, take the test, and start working games.
 
the young umps are better than some of old umps who favor same teams every year because they like doing that schools home games or friends with coach or relatives attend that school. If you throw 3 pitches to same spot same call should be made on all but is not. I think some umps are like hitters they have never seen good off speed pitches or can't see a good fastball from states best pitchers.

a lot of umps want to be noticed and want to stand out.
This post was edited on 7/16 3:08 PM by yankees19
 
There isn't a rating system. Coaches are just asked to recommend towards the end of the season. They aren't judged on a game to game basis like the fans, players, and coaches are by the umps. Smallcenter, I think your response was very uncalled for. Kind of sound like some umps I have dealt with. The OP was just making an observation.
 
There is a rating system. Problem is there is no accountability for coaches to do it. Umps have to or they don't get considered for playoff games. I umped 25+ games last year and only had three coaches give me rating.
 
1. There is a lot of truth to the 1st post, there are a lot of umpires who try to make themselves part of the game, which is wrong. You shouldn't really ever notice the umpire there might be a couple of pitches that are close, but as long as the umpire is consistent it shouldn't really matter. Secondly an umpire needs to have a short memory, if you make a questionable call, and the coach argues a little (in a civil manner) let it go, to0 often I see umpires take it to the next batter, I have even seen some take it to future games. But truthfully I have been to hundreds if not thousands of games in my day and I would probably say less than 5 of those games had out comes that the umpire played a part in.
2. The 2nd post also had something important, the state needs more umpires and officials in all sports, it can be a struggle to find umpires, with some guys doing way too many games. I was talking to an umpire a few weeks back between a varsity double header and he told me he did a 9th grade double header in the morning, a JV game in the afternoon and two varsity games at night, 5 games is way too much. It was a good pay day for him, and he did a good job, but over time that is tough on a person.
3. There is an evaluation system in place, and at State the umpires are the best of the best, but district games are usually based upon a good ole boy system.
 
I probably was a little harsh in my first post. However, the OP seems to hate umpires and my suggestion is that if he, or anyone for that matter, can do it better than take the test and start squatting behind the plate. Since he knows what an umpire is supposed to do then he'd be a great candidate for the job. I haven't come across an umpire yet that went into a game saying to himself and everyone else, "I want to call a crappy game and make everyone mad."
 
I agree 100%, even from 3 years ago the umpire quality has diminished. I've never in my life seen as poor umpiring as I did in a game last night.

In two instances this year, I've seen umpires turn and start threatening members of the crowd by saying. "Who said that? Come on, no one going to admit it? Too big of a chicken?" That's bush league. Another instance someone in the crowd made a remark about his strike zone. The umpire turned to the crowd and said something and the fan start itching his arm and looked like he was rolling up his sleeve and the umpire said "You want to roll up you're sleeve? I'll roll up my sleeves too if you want to fight." They tell the coaches the sportsmanship starts with them, but when umpires are calling fans out like that, that's just amateur.

I've filled out ratings for umpires several times this year, if they were good then they got a good rating. If they were bad, then they got a terrible rating. It's to the point where people are thinking "Ah, I'll just umpire because it's $90 a night and I can make an extra 3-4 thousand a summer just calling balls and strikes." It's getting out of hand.
 
I think it's pretty funny when people get so bent out of shape about one or two missed pitches during the course of a game. Umpires sit there and call what, a few hundred pitches every night? Of course they're going to miss a few, these aren't MLB umps. As for umpiring "just to make the money/for the heck of it" I guarantee that guys aren't umpiring high school baseball for that reason. It's hot as heck (usually) all season, you're constantly getting griped at by everyone at the game, and the total time spent doing it with travel usually ends up being over 5 hours each night.
 
First off, whether it be baseball, football, or basketball officiating is not easy to do. Those who think it is and like to criticize should get licensed and try it themselves. That being said, good umpires are hard to find. Many do an alright job. The problem is the one's who struggle and make coaches look bad because they stick up for their team and players when poor calls are made. Worse is those who won't admit a mistake and say they are right all the time or those who like to "control" the game with calls from behind the plate. Finding umpires is getting more difficult as there is not that much young blood getting into it.
Umpires do get "graded," but some coaches may not even be aware of it because the AD doesn't inform them about it or the AD may do it himself without any input from the coaches which can be a problem in itself. I don't have any answers for the bad umpiring because they are needed by the numbers of who is out there. Don't look for this to change anytime soon.
As far as the state tournament goes you do see some good umpires. However, there is still some of the "good old boy" syndrome and you will see some bad umpires due to the numbers that are needed and there just aren't that many good ones who can afford to miss work during the week to go ump a game in Des Moines.
 
I officiate because it is fun-generally. I don't do it for the money, but I wouldn't do it without the money either. I'm not going to pretend to be the world's greatest umpire, because I'm not. But it is not all on the umpires either. Bad baseball can make umpires look bad too. A catcher who knows what the heck he is doing will make me look good. He gets set up and doesn't turn into a wiggle worm. He gives me a good view of the plate. He doesn't come up early on slower pitches.

If a catcher sucks and I lose confidence that he will catch the ball, I get jumpy behind the plate. Batters that swing the bat after the ball is by them, I may flinch/blink my eyes. It just is out of the natural order, and it is different that what you normally see.

I do agree about umpires talking. I prefer to be pretty stoic and be away from everybody, even my partner between innings. If a coach or player says something socially, I certainly will not ignore them. I'll even respond to a fan that asks me something when I am by the fence getting a drink of water. But I prefer not to initiate conversation.

For the love of the game reason, I really like doing Freshy/Soph/JV games. Fans and coaches don't get as wound up, and it is more everybody is out there to learn the game. No matter the level, I really don't care who wins. And that is why people getting wound up, to me, is annoying. I really, really don't care who wins a game. I just want a crazy event-free game that goes quickly. I also am a fan of sports, so I understand the passion for wanting your team to win. But you get what you get. Not a lot of people are interested in getting hollered at, even if they are getting paid.
 
time for old umps to retire. they favor some schools. I can't believe a SUB STATE LEVEL we can't find better umps.



runners at 1st and 2nd base batter hits slow roller to 3rd. fielder fields ball and make no attempt to tag runner going to 3rd instead throws to 1st. ump calls runner out for going behind fielder. when coach asked ump what runner should have done instead he said to do what runner did. changed game would have been bases loaded 0 outs

same ump bases loaded. batter hit line drive to ss who throws to 3rd. 3rd baseman never found base but runner called out.

this ump JAMES SCHOLTEN knew who he wanted to win before it started. he pulled this before. he wants everyone to know he is there. must be nice to be stuck on yourself.

This post was edited on 7/24 11:01 AM by yankees19


This post was edited on 7/24 2:17 PM by yankees19

This post was edited on 7/24 5:49 PM by yankees19
 
Originally posted by yankees19:

time for old umps to retire. they favor some schools. I can't believe a SUB STATE LEVEL we can't find better umps.



runners at 1st and 2nd base batter hits slow roller to 3rd. fielder fields ball and make no attempt to tag runner going to 3rd instead throws to 1st. ump calls runner out for going behind fielder. when coach asked ump what runner should have done instead he said to do what runner did. changed game would have been bases loaded 0 outs

same ump bases loaded. batter hit line drive to ss who throws to 3rd. 3rd baseman never found base but runner called out.

this ump JAMES SCHOLTEN knew who he wanted to win before it started. he pulled this before. he wants everyone to know he is there. must be nice to be stuck on yourself.

This post was edited on 7/24 11:01 AM by yankees19


This post was edited on 7/24 2:17 PM by yankees19


This post was edited on 7/24 5:49 PM by yankees19
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th
 
Do you REALLY think Jim had a rooting interest for Remsen Saint Marys over West Lyon? Actually, while I remember both calls, I don't remember which team they went against...I'm presuming West Lyon, seeing they lost. I don't believe either call affected the end result, did they? It was a good game and I would have liked to have seen both teams move on.
 
both had direct impact on outcome. 1st call would have been bases loaded 1 out. west lyon have taken 1-0 lead in top of 2nd inning. west lyon could of scored more runs and had momentum. changes rest of game.

2nd call would have been bases loaded 2 outs. it end game. how did it not affect game.

sorry but both calls greatly affect outcome.
 
Yankees can you go into detail these calls? Your generic version of them leaves a lot to be interpreted. I just want how it happened so we can have a logical conversation on why the umpires called what they called? Is that too much to ask? Based on your previous posts it is but lets try.
 
top of 2nd inning

west lyon had runners on first and second with 1 out. batter hits slow roller to 3rd base. the 3rd baseman fields grounder never looks at runner going to 3rd or 2nd. he throws to 1st base late. bases would have been loaded with 1 out. jim scholten said runner going to 3rd base ran out of baseline to get to 3rd. he went around 3rd baseman who was standing in baseline. when coach asked scholten what runner was suppose to do run fielder. scholten replied he should go around fielder. when 3rd baseman fielded ball and threw to first the runner was only at shortstop position. west lyon would had opportunity to take early lead in game because next batter hit slow roller to 2nd. run could of scored.

top of 6th innings

west lyon had bases loaded 0 outs. batter hits line drive to shortstop. he then throws to 3rd base. 3rd baseman is searching out base and never gets within a foot of base. runner drives back. scholten calls him out to end game.
 
Originally posted by yankees19:

top of 2nd inning

west lyon had runners on first and second with 1 out. batter hits slow roller to 3rd base. the 3rd baseman fields grounder never looks at runner going to 3rd or 2nd. he throws to 1st base late. bases would have been loaded with 1 out. jim scholten said runner going to 3rd base ran out of baseline to get to 3rd. he went around 3rd baseman who was standing in baseline. when coach asked scholten what runner was suppose to do run fielder. scholten replied he should go around fielder. when 3rd baseman fielded ball and threw to first the runner was only at shortstop position. west lyon would had opportunity to take early lead in game because next batter hit slow roller to 2nd. run could of scored.

top of 6th innings

west lyon had bases loaded 0 outs. batter hits line drive to shortstop. he then throws to 3rd base. 3rd baseman is searching out base and never gets within a foot of base. runner drives back. scholten calls him out to end game
Click to expand...
First situation on a slow roller how is the third baseman in his spot to interfere with a runner? Slow roller wouldn't he have to come to the ball? So why was your runner moving out of way if he didn't look at him? What makes him go out of line then? Then second play how does the game end with 2 outs? bases loaded no outs a catch and a force is only 2 outs? So case in point you cant remember clearly so ill say they made right calls.
 
3RD baseman was waiting for ball to roll to him that is why he was late throwing to first. he missed a lot of soft and hard hit balls during infield. Remsen 3rd baseman did not charge a grounder all night. that's why we had 3 infield hits or 3rd baseman errors down 3rd baseline that inning.
 
So if the runner was only at shortstop position on a slow roller and he waited for it. And at time of throw you said he was only at shortstop position and he hasn't moved why doesn't he step on third? Your story doesn't add up.
 
he never looked at base runners. I think he was just happy to field ball. he never took step in any direction. you didn't see play therefore your input is not helpful.

you just care about heelan getting to state any way possible. I know how state assigns umps and how it works. i take umping serious and know how it works.

when i make a mistake i can admit.

when coach asks ump what player should have done different and his reply is go around fielder then. admit you made mistake and move on


This post was edited on 7/25 10:43 PM by yankees19

This post was edited on 7/25 10:45 PM by yankees19
 
If you take it serious how did you not know the pitching limitation rule is not in the rule book? How did this get to Heelan we were talking about your game that you lost and can't let go? Your right I didn't see the play why I asked you what happened. Based on what you have said it doesn't all add up why I keep bringing up other points.
 
I know pitching limits vary well and you are implying I do not. if I was umping kid would not have been allow to pitch. the ump allowed it so he made mistake. do not take state opportunity away from lemars for umps mistake. they seem to be making a lot of mistakes this post season. if lemars can go neither should heelan. coaches ask umps all the time what they can do regarding subs

I have 2 varsity pitchers in state and know when they can pitch again
 
my point is ishaa can't correct some ump mistakes and not others. they are human and make mistakes. state should get good umps for playoffs.

.
 
Because obviously you do not answer this question umpire A has a game on Monday pitcher CC pitches 2 innings. Umpire B( new umpire) if you don't follow has them Tuesday pitcher CC throws 5 innings. So by rule he has to sit out Wed and Thursday. But wait on Wed umpire C a new umpire again CC pitches 1 pitch to get an out. How is he supposed to know he pitched Mon and Tues? When he was on vacation in the Bahamas mon and stuck in an airport Tuesday night? To help you out he's not cause its not his job! If you can prove that it is his job then I will grant you the smartest man alive. If you cannot you have to say Heelan is supposed to be in state by the rule and you were wrong.
 
Originally posted by yankees19:

my point is ishaa can't correct some ump mistakes and not others. they are human and make mistakes. state should get good umps for playoffs.

.
Click to expand...
Because the game was appealed! Appeal your game and see what they come up with I bet they would say your crazy and its a judgement call! This is a rules violation which can be changed. Are you that bull headed not to see the difference? Oh and waiting for that answer I'm gonna love to see what you came up with.
 
I lot of rules were broken in playoffs. I don't care which rule you want to enforce and which ones you don't.

1. pitching limits
2. umps making right calls
3. drinking/ drugs
4. grades

We can 't figure out why kids break laws when simple rules can't be followed by people in authority. we attended west lyon/ Remsen game and a lot of st Mary's fans were allowed to walk across street and never paid gate fee. are we teaching people cheat system if you know how to or know the right people.

getting to host playoff games and umping games is not earned. it is handed to schools because they know the right people

We need to hold people in authority accountable for their actions. parents allow kids to do whatever they want and if they get to trouble it is never their kids fault. it is time for parents to be parents.

people only want to obey rules/laws that fit their life style. kids can get into trouble and someone will have a loop hole and get them out of it.
This post was edited on 7/27 3:51 PM by yankees19
 
You never answered my question on the basis of your whole argument that the umpire should of knew the pitching limitation rule? Now your just going icircle with whatever you are trying to prove. You have still faile dot prove anything. In your game judgement calls were at fault. Also the score was 2-1 after 3 innings! That means you had 4 innings to do something about what had happened, but I assume you guys are mental midgets and instantly shut down and started to blame officials instead of overcoming. So yeah rules may have been violated in your game on judgement calls! This was a rules violation that is a rule that is either followed or broken not left to a discretion of an umpire. Sorry not same case you are wrong once again. Remember if you answer my question you will be named smartest man alive. Oh wait you can't cause you are wrong learn some rules before you come back here and put an umpires name on a message board!
 
why is ump doing playoff game if he doesn't know pitching limit rule. you just shot yourself in the foot. thanks for doing so. it is information he is required to know to become certified.


heelan coach should of said something right away instead of another coach telling fan who told coach. heelan's coach allowed it to happen. it was heelan coach to point it out during game. instead of waiting for 2nd hand information. he must not have known pitching rule broken. he did not say anything until lemars was home. you keep sending your kids to Christian school and acting better than everyone else. maybe you can instill some moral values in them. you should practice what you teach kids. unless you are teaching them to get ahead any way possible that is a great Christian value. You implement rule that you feel are important because you said they are more important than laws.

pitching rules are in rule book and umpires take test from book to be certified

we are not mental midgets. we did not loss 8-5 and need someone else to help us find a way to win. you forgot west lyon had bases loaded in top of 6th with 1 out. same ump called runner out when 3rd baseman was of bag. prove is in newspaper picture





This post was edited on 7/27 2:44 PM by yankees19




This post was edited on 7/27 2:48 PM by yankees19



This post was edited on 7/27 2:48 PM by yankees19


This post was edited on 7/27 2:58 PM by yankees19

This post was edited on 7/27 3:07 PM by yankees19
 
Wow 4 edits good job. You shoot yourself in the foot like I said pitching limitation rule is not in the rule book! It is sent out seperately to coaches because of its significance and because coaches are responsible for it! They weren't home yet it was settled after the game before either team left. Pitching limitation rule like stated a million times has nothing to do with umpires. I gave you a perfect example why it doesnt and you still can't answer that question! Until you do so you are wrong. So please answer that question I stated that you neglect to answer.
 
Have to edit and can't respond to my post? Obviously you are mental midgets if you are blaming a 2-1 loss on something that happened in the first 3 innings. You have 4 innings to do something bout it but you let it get to you obviously. Also why wasn't the runner looking through line drives? Let me gues that's the umpires fault to? If he's lookingthemthrough no way he gets doubled off. See what I did there I looked at a situation logically didn't blame anyone goes back to the fundamentals of baseball not the umpire.
 
Still haven't answered my question then from before imagine that. I take this so called same umpire test you take and it's not on there. Why would they at association meetings say we have nothing to do with it? It's a matter between coaches and the coaches AD. Why would they tell us that? Weren't you at this meeting since you umpire?
 
Because you can't answer the question because you are wrong. It is not the umpires responsibility. End of thread hope I never see you umpire a game.
 
Rule 6.1 states -the pitcher shall pitch while facing the batter from either a wind up position or a set position. The position of his feet determine whether he will pitch from the wind up or the set position. He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitchers plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitchers plate. Turning the shoulders to check runners while in contact with the pitchers plate in the set position is legal. Turnings he shoulders after bringing the hands together during or after the stretch is a balk. H shall not make a quick return pitch in attempt to catch a batter off balance. The catcher shall have oth feet in the catchersmboxmat the time of the pitch. If a pitcher is ambidextrous the umpire shall require the pitcher to face a batter as either a left handed pitcher or a right handed pitcher but not both.

So what's that rule supposed to show us?
 
Yankees19, This is right out of the spring sports manual on the IAHSAA website.Doesn't say umpires must enforce it.


Coaches, it is your responsibility to make certain that your pitchers are complying with the pitching limitation rule.
Obviously, umpires are aware of the rule in that the rule is outlined on your line-up card, however, you are the responsible
party to make certain that a young man does not violate the pitching limitation rule as it pertains to the number of innings he
may pitch in a given week
 
Hey Yankees, here is rule 6.1 right out of the rule book. Please point the pitching limitation rule out to me, I obvisouly can't see it!


It doesn't say umpires must enforce it!


ART. 6 . . . Each state association shall have a pitching restriction policy to
afford pitchers a reasonable rest period between pitching appearances.
 
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