You don't see this argument in other sports. One baseball team has 30 kids out when another has 13 both are 1A. Should the one with 30 have to play 2A?
Teams Dropping down to 8 man
- Thread starter Jayhawkin
- Start date
A team with 36 players will have 9 seniors, 9 juniors, freshman and sophomores rarely play varsity. A team with 20 has 5 of each and will often have freshmen and sophomores starting and playing varsity.
Baseball's not a contact/collision sport.
I think the only way a 2nd lower division would work is you have to eliminate the playoffs for that class. Otherwise back to the same issue of schools playing the lowest level possible for the best chance at winning and a title.
Eliminate the playoffs for current 8 player class and see how many would go up.
Baseball's not a contact/collision sport.
I think the only way a 2nd lower division would work is you have to eliminate the playoffs for that class. Otherwise back to the same issue of schools playing the lowest level possible for the best chance at winning and a title.
Eliminate the playoffs for current 8 player class and see how many would go up.
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So eliminating the playoffs is your solution? Ever try getting more kids to participate and put in work to make themselves better and ultimately their team better? This just takes away the aspect of working hard to achieve a goal, take away the playoffs then you take away the goal every team in 8 man should have. The people on here get mad at Bosco fans for making excuses yet because a team meets the requirements for 8 man, but has 30+ players due to great participation, they should have to play in a different class or not be allowed to compete in the playoffs. This is football, if you can't handle the fact that some schools are better than others, which can increase participation by the way, then don't play the game. Everyone puts on pads and a helmet, just because their are more people that participate on one team does not mean that they are cheating the system or playing at the lowest level to win. Just quit with the bullshit excuses
I was just throwing a dart about the elimination of the playoffs.
I don't think there needs to be more classes or really any changes to the Beds number at this point. If Class A under 32, then maybe. But I think that's a few years away. By then many of the <20 roster teams will be gone.
I don't think there needs to be more classes or really any changes to the Beds number at this point. If Class A under 32, then maybe. But I think that's a few years away. By then many of the <20 roster teams will be gone.
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I thought at least part of the original intent of starting 8 man in Iowa was to allow those small schools who struggled to get kids out a chance to continue to field a team.
If so, it makes sense that those with strong numbers move back to 11 man.
If the intent was just a different brand of football for small schools that is a different story.
If so, it makes sense that those with strong numbers move back to 11 man.
If the intent was just a different brand of football for small schools that is a different story.
If you meet the requirements to play then you should be able to play. End of story
I know a school could barely get 25 kids out for football when they were terrible 11 man school. They then qualified to play 8 man they were successful then had 35-40 kids out. Winning helps a lot of these schools get kids to go out in any sport if you don't realize that then theres no help to further explain this to you.
The number of players out for football should have nothing to do the class size you play in. I've seen A and 1A schools with 60 kids out for football. Should they play 3A? As has been repeated several times successful teams get kids out that are out just to be a part of the team.
In the end numbers out mean nothing. I believe our current state champion just won with fewer than 24 players. It's the quality and the coaching that makes a difference.
I'd also say if schools are dropping classes thinking they will do it just to win a state championship, then that is the wrong decision. This isn't college football that makes the schools millions of dollars for winning. This is part of their education. In this day and age with tight budgets, schools dropping usually is done because of travel concerns at all levels and other financial reasons. Budgets make more of an impact to this decision that the chance to win a state championship.
In the end numbers out mean nothing. I believe our current state champion just won with fewer than 24 players. It's the quality and the coaching that makes a difference.
I'd also say if schools are dropping classes thinking they will do it just to win a state championship, then that is the wrong decision. This isn't college football that makes the schools millions of dollars for winning. This is part of their education. In this day and age with tight budgets, schools dropping usually is done because of travel concerns at all levels and other financial reasons. Budgets make more of an impact to this decision that the chance to win a state championship.
Congrats, once you get that many kids out on a consistent basis and make some noise in 8-man then move back up to Class A. Rooster said it best, 8-man should be for teams that struggle at the Class A/11-man level. Not only that, but also for programs who struggle to get 20-25 kids out for football.
I'll be the guy that throws Bosco on the bus and while I'm at it,before I get all of you Bosco fans all riled up and bent out of shape, I'll throw Exira/EH-K under with them. When these two schools dropped to 8-man for the 2012 football season, they were playoff qualifiers (8-3 record) the season before with DB even winning their first round game over Grundy Center. Bosco had 43 kids out and graduated 11 during their final run in A. Exira/EH-K had 29 kids out and graduated five during their last season in A after going 8-2 and losing the first round of the playoffs. They brought in eight freshmen the next year and ended up in the semifinals while Bosco ended up in the championship game.
My point being, if you've got solid (and I would consider dressing 29 one year and bringing eight new people after going 8-2) numbers then why drop? Why not ride it out until you can't field a competitive team with those numbers in 8-man? Why not have the opportunity to give 3-6 more kids the opportunity to play (and obviously still compete with the big boys) more and get them on the field?
Go ahead and call me and homer or call me biased, most of you know I am an HLV alum and supporter. Heading into the 2010 season (realignment year), we were coming off of 5-5 season where we had the opportunity to drop down to the 8-man ranks as we had for years and years. Coach Smith and our athletic director at the time, Cory Lahndorf, always decided it would be best for all parties involved to stay in the Class A ranks as we always had solid numbers on teams that were legitimate playoff contenders most seasons. The Class of 2011 had 14 kids out for football and everyone knew that HLV probably wouldn't have a class of that size anytime for the foreseeable future. Still, knowing he would graduate all but ONE starter from that 2010 team and he could have a team that could've competed for a State Championship at the 8-man level, Coach Smith decided he wanted to remain in the 11-man ranks because he felt we could compete still. He felt his team had enough pieces to be a serious threat in the playoffs. When the dust settled, HLV finished 6-5 that season and suffered 4 of their losses from ranked teams. The year after at HLV, they went 2-7 and had to do a ton of roster struggling throughout the season because of injuries, people quitting, etc. I think they finished the year with around 17 kids out, thus forcing the drop to 8-man.
I'll get off of my soapbox, my point being is that HLV knew 8-man was probably in their future but they held it off for as long as possible. It that it is my belief that the 8-man game is designed for teams that struggle to compete at 11-man, teams that struggle to field decent roster sizes and for teams that just aren't physically cut out to play teams at the 11-man level anymore. I picked those two programs (DB and Exira/EH-K) because those are the first two that come to mind. I'm sure there are other programs who have dropped after having good seasons while returning a lot of players and I would love to hear about more teams and keep debating. I just think if you've got the talent and roster size to play A, then stay there or move back up once you've worked back to where you once were.
Coach Smith is one of the classiest guys in the state, HLV is always the example I think of when I bring up this argument, they are now at the point where they really couldn't field an 11 man team, and that is why they dropped down.
I really have no problem if a school wants to play 8 man football, but I think if they have enough kids to solidly field a Varsity and JV 11 man team then why take the opportunity away from kids who could play more. Not picking on Don Bosco, but they also lost 2 games because they played 8 man this year, when they had the numbers to play in class A.
I really have no problem if a school wants to play 8 man football, but I think if they have enough kids to solidly field a Varsity and JV 11 man team then why take the opportunity away from kids who could play more. Not picking on Don Bosco, but they also lost 2 games because they played 8 man this year, when they had the numbers to play in class A.
Sorry for being so direct, but I cannot believe there is intelligent life who honestly believes the size of a team's roster should have any influence on its FB classification. Ridiculous and immature thinking to even bring up the argument.
It isn't so much the roster size, it is fact that they're competitive at 11-man with a good track record, so teams figure "Hey, let's drop to 8-man and bully around schools that dropped for legitimate reasons other than hunting for a state championship against lesser competition." Don't come on here and tell me I'm immature and ridiculous for presenting facts and statistics when I voice my opinion saying Don Bosco and Exira/EH-K shouldn't have dropped to 8-man when they did. You're the one who is narrow-minded and thinks just because a school meets the meet 8-man requirements then why not just drop?
If you're below the cutoff line, you've had a traditionally bad program but have 30 kids out, go ahead and drop! Compete against teams better suited for your talent pool. You completely missed the point myself and others on here are trying to make. It isn't all about numbers, it is about playing to the level of your competition that best suits you and the others around the state.
Well your exira stat little inaccurate. Based on quikstats they went from 29 players to 28 the next year in 8 man not going up 3 like you stated the losing 5 gaining 8 freshman. Also they lost their QB top rusher and top WR and 3 of their top 5 tacklers. So losing that and declining numbers I think pretty easy decision to drop down. They have been declining ever since so maybe they saw the writing on the wall?
Also factor in proximity to oppnents for their change. Playing A opponents like before etc and then martensdale and DMC those are some drives. Playing woodbine West harrison Glidden Coon Rapids little easier.
To my point again, they were 8-2, call them being progressive or ahead of the game, but they made it to the semifinals and were bounced by the eventual champions. Do you think they could've been competitive? More than likely yes, they could've been a playoff team in Class A that season.
I just don't see why teams eliminate the chance to give more players the opportunity to play when they're competitive in Class A is my main point. I see where all of you guys are coming from, I guess just coming from HLV, we competed in Class A until we were struggling something fierce and dropping to 8-man was the best and most realistic choice for the program.
ttp://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/exira-ehk-spartans-(elk-horn,ia)/football-fall-10/previous_seasons.htm
Little easier to see the history than quickstats. A couple name are duplicated on the roster so a couple lower than listed.
EDIT: Not a lot of faith in the Maxpreps rosters, Exira has been in the low 30's pretty consistently per quick stats the last few years.
Little easier to see the history than quickstats. A couple name are duplicated on the roster so a couple lower than listed.
EDIT: Not a lot of faith in the Maxpreps rosters, Exira has been in the low 30's pretty consistently per quick stats the last few years.
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I will also stick up for Exira along with hawkeyepower. As what was brought up in an earlier post this year, Exira and Elk Horn-Kimballton (before joining) were actually in the first group to start the 8 player class so for them to go up 2 years because of enrollment numbers I believe the year the two schools joined, then drop back down to where they have been since the late 2000's and early 90's. They have been in the class since day 1 and if you look at their BEDS aren't petitioning every year to stay there. As is every small school they are losing kids and should stay at the 8 player level if that's where they have always been.
Don Bosco though, I will join in on throwing them under the bus a little, probably should be playing in the class A level. All I heard this season was their depth of how many kids that play this and that. If they play 16-20 kids why are you honestly at the 8 player level? I understand they meet the requirements to be here but if they honestly play that many kids then why honestly? Just doesn't make sense to me honestly. I get it why they are down, but then again I don't get it.
Ironically, shortly after I read your post I read the following:
"There used to be a time where two people could have different opinions and have an intelligent, educational conversation about it. Nowadays, two people have different opinions and all of a sudden it’s World War freaking 3"
While roster size is something for a school to consider when deciding whether or not to drop down (not enough kids=sophomores and sometimes freshman starting Varsity=player safety issue), at the end of the day, if you meet the enrollment requirements, it's legal to drop down. Someone else mentioned counting males (you will have classes that have a higher percentage of boys vs. girls, some quite skewed) as a possibly more accurate way to determine class size as you are actually counting the kids that could potentially go out, but I know if a school or two that has had females participate in football, so that's not fail-safe either.
I think the issue some are taking with DB is the fact that they are a private school. Enrollment can be controlled to a much greater extent than public schools can and the pool from which DB pulls their enrollment is very large (Waterloo/Cedar Falls area). But what I believe is the biggest factor is that private schools have very few (if any) students from families with a low socioeconomic status, which translates to many tangible and intangible advantages for the private schools. Just a few examples include: parents who have invested financially in their child's education and therefore have high expectations of their children & the school, students who may not need to have jobs during the school year or don't need to be home after school to watch younger siblings and therefore have time to participate in extracurriculars, low academic ineligibility, and additional time & money those parents have invested into youth sports participation, camps, special coaching, and the program itself. I believe all these things add up to higher sport participation rates at private schools and therefore the larger roster size. That is why some feel a weighted enrollment for private schools is a more equitable answer.
I think the issue some are taking with DB is the fact that they are a private school. Enrollment can be controlled to a much greater extent than public schools can and the pool from which DB pulls their enrollment is very large (Waterloo/Cedar Falls area). But what I believe is the biggest factor is that private schools have very few (if any) students from families with a low socioeconomic status, which translates to many tangible and intangible advantages for the private schools. Just a few examples include: parents who have invested financially in their child's education and therefore have high expectations of their children & the school, students who may not need to have jobs during the school year or don't need to be home after school to watch younger siblings and therefore have time to participate in extracurriculars, low academic ineligibility, and additional time & money those parents have invested into youth sports participation, camps, special coaching, and the program itself. I believe all these things add up to higher sport participation rates at private schools and therefore the larger roster size. That is why some feel a weighted enrollment for private schools is a more equitable answer.
It doesn't matter how many team drop down to 8 man. They still have to get through Bosco. They'd have a better chance at winning a state title in 1a or a before they even get a chance at winning state title in 8 man. Bosco's speed will out last any team in 2016
Yes, you are correct. On a positive note, at least they capped off their season with a victory!
The Bedford Board will vote on Wednesday night whether to stay 11-man or 8-player. Any other schools that people know about considering 8-player or sharing?
I agreed with every bit of your argument up until the end. All of the posters above would agree 8-man football is the same game as 11-man football with a few less players. It isn't like we're talking 6-man football here. Many 8-man players make the transition to 11-man football in college football. They strap their helmets up the same way, they run and throw the ball the same way, and they tackle the same way.
Don Bosco could of beat any a or 1a team this year. 8 man is faster the your "real" football is.
Umm, no they couldn't have. I don't believe you actually believe this, but then again I don't know you.
Well then, Jeffrey. Why don't you ask Coach Yoder and the boys to move up to A this year and we can find out then?
**Warning** Pull your pants up folks, its getting deep in here. If you played Denver or GR, your coach would be waving the white flag by halftime. Its too easy picking on the DB fans, they're like the little dog that never stops barking.
Dont worry, we arent as worked up as you would like to think. It was actually kind of hard to read this post through all of the state tournament trophies we have accumulated.
How bout you move down to 8 man and get throttled?
Since enrollment is struggling at a lot of smaller schools state wide, maybe the IHSAA should look at dropping the BEDS number for 8 man or encourage some of the more competitive 8 man teams to go up and play class A football. At this pace we will have 80 teams playing 8 man in no time, I think we are losing site of why this class of football was originally started.
Rumor has it that eventually we might have two 8-player classes and they will eliminate Class A.
If they actually do this then they might go back to 64 teams in Classes 3A, 2A and 1A. On another note does anyone know if Bedford voted to go to 8-player last night at their board meeting?
If they actually do this then they might go back to 64 teams in Classes 3A, 2A and 1A. On another note does anyone know if Bedford voted to go to 8-player last night at their board meeting?
