Pitch Counts-A different angle

[icu81222]

I am a big proponent of pitch counts and protecting the arms of pitchers, in particular, younger players. I don't think the innings pitched rules are a fix all but a good start. IMO, pitch counts are the best tool but that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I've seen numerous examples of abuse over the years and it is to the point of embarrassing in some situations.

One thing I've thought about lately though......If it is a HS senior and he isn't a college prospect and he has a history of being a strong kid with good mechanics and a rubber arm that recovers well, what is the harm in maybe over using a bit his senior year. In particular in the post season.

Again, I'm a pitch count proponent but thought this might spur some discussion. If the kid isn't going on to pitch at the next level and if he is the kind of kid that might be able to do it, what REALLY is the harm?

(Note that I'm not talking about throwing through pain or using a kid that has poor mechanics or arm trouble history. this would be a kid that many of us have seen before that can probably handle it.)

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Well that's one example out of several others. I get what you're saying, and a lot of times kids will say they can throw forever, but if there's gonna be a specific rule, especially for a pitch count, then they'd need to adhere to that without making exceptions.

That's why with the current rule there's a bit more room to work for kids like you describe.

If you only get say 120-130 pitches max for a game (and whatever would be acceptable for a certain amount of days or a week) then that's what you get. (That probably seems like a high number, but my guess is they wouldn't initially try to hamstring schools by saying you only get 90 pitches a game either)

Still I think most would agree, even if a kid is not going to play after high school and yet he is good enough to lead his team to state all by himself, throwing 140+ pitches in a game is overkill no matter the arm.

 

[icu81222]

I agree that there should be rules AND that they should be followed. I would say no one generally should be able to go more than 110-20 pitches without 5 days rest (for example) with other rules to follow based on days of rest with certain pitch counts and various formulas. (it could get very complex and hard to enforce which is why a simpler version has been adopted)

I'm just saying (I think you understand me) that it really would do no harm to a kid to let him throw to high pitch counts and on short rest late in his senior year and in the post season.

The general idea on pitch counts is that you don't want to damage a players arm for future play/opportunities. Most arm injuries are resulting from cumulative use over time. Not necessarily a random freak injury, yet they do happen.

If the kid is an 18 year old senior with the likely hood that he will NEVER toe the bump again in his life.......maybe there isn't a real reason to limit that kid. (again, realizing everyone isn't the same. this is just a hypothetical)

This also doesn't factor in what impact over use has on his joints once he is in his 40's and 50's.

Just making conversation.

 

[tm3308]

There's no perfect system. Even pitch counts won't effectively do the job in many situations.

For example, throwing a lot of pitches in one inning can be just as hard on your arm as throwing a lot over the course of a game. Those 5-10 minutes of rest between innings are important, and the more pitches you throw in an inning, the less good that rest is going to do. If two pitchers both throw 60 pitches in 4 innings, and one goes 30-8-10-12, while the other goes 15-15-15-15, the pitcher with the rough first inning will have put a lot more stress on his arm than the one who was steady throughout.

There are also environmental factors to consider. Throwing 85 pitches on an 85-degree day is not as hard on the arm as throwing 85 pitches when it's in the 50s or 60s for a game in May.

It's really easy to go case by case and say "that coach was being irresponsible with this kid's arm". I've seen several cases of that over the last 10 years. But setting regulations to put a stop to it is virtually impossible without making it all far too complicated for anyone to keep straight.

 

[icu81222]

Does anyone think it is really an issue for most Senior kids that won't be going on to pitch ever again?

 

[nwiowahawkeyefan]

Did any of you catch the ESPN Outside The Line's feature on pitch counts in Japan? It was the segment that included the mention of the LeMars/Heelan situation. This Japanese kid threw nearly 800 pitches in 9 days. And apparently it isn't an uncommon occurrence over there. I will link the video, though it only shows the actual special and not the talk that included the LeMars/Heelan mention.
It is a very interesting watch.
Japan's Pitching Monsters -- 8:54

 

[icu81222]

Thanks for sharing that. Interesting.

Nolan Ryan always stated that pitchers didn't throw nearly enough. I believe years ago pitchers always pitched on 3 days rest and had higher pitch counts and there was no specialization as there is today.

The majors typically go on 4 days rest now and rarely go higher pitch counts mostly due to the specialization you see now with situational pitching changes. It's almost over kill now

 

[tm3308]

Torn labrums and rotator cuffs will stay with you, whether you pitch again or not. And I've seen a few of those in my area.

 

[screwloose]

Originally posted by icu81222:
Thanks for sharing that. Interesting.

Nolan Ryan always stated that pitchers didn't throw nearly enough. I believe years ago pitchers always pitched on 3 days rest and had higher pitch counts and there was no specialization as there is today.

The majors typically go on 4 days rest now and rarely go higher pitch counts mostly due to the specialization you see now with situational pitching changes. It's almost over kill now


I know this is a little off subject, but it speaks to specialization in pitching. I heard an interesting statistic regarding Miguel Cabrera's triple crown last season. He faced something like 258 different pitchers, obviously some were the same, but as far as a different guys from each game. Rogers Hornsby faced something like only 65 when he did it years ago.

As for pitch counts, I don't see why this cannot be tracked. If I'm not mistaken, there's pitch count rules in AAU or Little League. Maybe a stair-step formula should be implemented.

Less than 30 pitches, no rest required.
31-50 pitches, one day rest required.
51-75 pitches, two days rest required.
76-100 pitches, three days of rest required.
100-125 pitches, four days of rest required.
Maximum of 125 pitches per game.

This is just a rough outline, obviously the numbers could be changed. But it would be a start.