MVC and MAC to discuss district football on Wednesday
- Thread starter tylercoan
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tylercoan
Thanks for posting the link:
So if the MAC and MVC schools chose to align into districts , the chief reason would be post season parity?
I would assume that schools in the MAC driving the discussions are the dominate post season football members?
The only con I can see with no conferences, is the elimination of tradition. The rest of the classes have used the district system since 1992 so there is history of the district system working for most of the IHSAA members. The only change I would make in the present district system in the West is to seed the 16 playoff qualifiers versus matching up districts in the post season.
Thanks for posting the link:
So if the MAC and MVC schools chose to align into districts , the chief reason would be post season parity?
I would assume that schools in the MAC driving the discussions are the dominate post season football members?
The only con I can see with no conferences, is the elimination of tradition. The rest of the classes have used the district system since 1992 so there is history of the district system working for most of the IHSAA members. The only change I would make in the present district system in the West is to seed the 16 playoff qualifiers versus matching up districts in the post season.
I believe these talks are twofold. One, can the MVC and MAC come up with a mutually agreeable system including some crossover games, so the MAC can get some regular season competition outside their conference. The article says several mock schedules have been created with that idea in mind.
Two, if that can't be worked out, then they might turn things over to the IAHSAA to set up districts and schedules.
I think most schools in both conferences would prefer keeping control of their schedules and remaining as football conferences, so I would believe that's what they're hoping to accomplish. It looks like if they can get agreement on doing some crossover scheduling, they'll stay together as conferences instead of actual district play.
It does appear Wahlert is committed to dropping to 3A. I would think that means they're out of the MVC - for football certainly, I don't know about other sports. If the MVC remains, Xavier will almost certainly stay. Assumption is on the fence, so their future is uncertain.
Two, if that can't be worked out, then they might turn things over to the IAHSAA to set up districts and schedules.
I think most schools in both conferences would prefer keeping control of their schedules and remaining as football conferences, so I would believe that's what they're hoping to accomplish. It looks like if they can get agreement on doing some crossover scheduling, they'll stay together as conferences instead of actual district play.
It does appear Wahlert is committed to dropping to 3A. I would think that means they're out of the MVC - for football certainly, I don't know about other sports. If the MVC remains, Xavier will almost certainly stay. Assumption is on the fence, so their future is uncertain.
I think anything short of District Football Play would be a failure. Even if they played district style football without District distinction, they would most likely move to District football a few years down the road after the smoke clears.
I don't think the MVC merging with the MAC in any kind of Regular season play helps the MVC as a conference. Sure the MAC wants this, it's only a theory that they cannot compete with the MVC in the playoffs. However Bettendorf has still done really well with this current alignment. The rest of the MAC has had a different route to get to the Title Game other than through Bettendorf. When you have 4-5 quality playoff proven Teams from the MVC and maybe two from the MAC, that's a hard thing to overcome.
East, West and Jefferson are only going to get better if they play teams that are of their caliber. If those teams play Bettendorf, Clinton and North Scott, I am afraid they will still be stuck at the bottom. I think 4A just needs districts to finally arrive.
I don't think the MVC merging with the MAC in any kind of Regular season play helps the MVC as a conference. Sure the MAC wants this, it's only a theory that they cannot compete with the MVC in the playoffs. However Bettendorf has still done really well with this current alignment. The rest of the MAC has had a different route to get to the Title Game other than through Bettendorf. When you have 4-5 quality playoff proven Teams from the MVC and maybe two from the MAC, that's a hard thing to overcome.
East, West and Jefferson are only going to get better if they play teams that are of their caliber. If those teams play Bettendorf, Clinton and North Scott, I am afraid they will still be stuck at the bottom. I think 4A just needs districts to finally arrive.
That is one thing I think has been beneficial of teams in the West. They comprised those districts with a couple geographic rules, then they put all the teams together using that three-tiered system. They also have saved most of the natural rivalries. Then they try to match teams up against other teams from the same tier. This is two-fold in effect: one, it creates a parity situation where some of the better teams are going to have worse records playing mostly strong teams and a some of the lower teams can have better records playing other lower teams; two, this gives the lower teams some confidence, a little success and perhaps the groundswell of support the school and community needs to begin rallying a consistent turnaround. A surprise playoff win is just icing on the cake.
Just an update on Wednesday's meeting. Apparently a lot of discussion with no decisions yet. The ADs plan to get together again sometime before December 20, with the end of the year a deadline for the IAHSAA to get things set up for next year.
One interesting quote from the Kennedy AD is at the end, when he says he thought they'd be further along by now. Sounds like there's still some pretty big things to get worked out.
No Decision Yet on MVC/MAC Football
One interesting quote from the Kennedy AD is at the end, when he says he thought they'd be further along by now. Sounds like there's still some pretty big things to get worked out.
No Decision Yet on MVC/MAC Football
Regarding the tier system for districts:
Under the tier system for the west 4A district's format, each school has to make a decision about the rest of their schedule. I assume the 24 schools currently complete a requested opponent list for non-district play and the association uses that "want list" to finish the schedule? If you are a middle or lower tier school you have to make a decision to play a more difficult schedule. As an example take a 2nd tier team in these districts. At best you would have 3 district wins if the parity is built into each district. This team would have to make a decision about completing their scheduling...playing some 3A programs or some lower tier 4A schools versus scheduling some difficult opponents that may or may not prepare you for the playoffs. IMO playing Clear Lake (Mason City), Pella (Marshalltown), or Lewis Central (Indianola) are competitive with 2nd tier teams in the 4A districts.
The other classes do not use a tier system for grouping the districts. So if the entire 4A football class agrees to district football the IHSAA will have to make a decision about using geography to select districts.
The only way I can see to prevent teams high loss teams from playing in the 4A post-season is to expand the 4A class to 56 or to a number they choose. I don't see the IHSAA eliminating play-off games...no other states have done that as far as I know. So making each class more equal in number makes more sense then dropping playoff games. Iowa 4A football has operated under the premise that it takes 700 students in enrollment for 3 grades to be successful in 4A play. I am not sure why that number was established as the minimum standard.
This post was edited on 12/6 7:33 AM by tnobd
This post was edited on 12/6 9:04 AM by tnobd
Under the tier system for the west 4A district's format, each school has to make a decision about the rest of their schedule. I assume the 24 schools currently complete a requested opponent list for non-district play and the association uses that "want list" to finish the schedule? If you are a middle or lower tier school you have to make a decision to play a more difficult schedule. As an example take a 2nd tier team in these districts. At best you would have 3 district wins if the parity is built into each district. This team would have to make a decision about completing their scheduling...playing some 3A programs or some lower tier 4A schools versus scheduling some difficult opponents that may or may not prepare you for the playoffs. IMO playing Clear Lake (Mason City), Pella (Marshalltown), or Lewis Central (Indianola) are competitive with 2nd tier teams in the 4A districts.
The other classes do not use a tier system for grouping the districts. So if the entire 4A football class agrees to district football the IHSAA will have to make a decision about using geography to select districts.
The only way I can see to prevent teams high loss teams from playing in the 4A post-season is to expand the 4A class to 56 or to a number they choose. I don't see the IHSAA eliminating play-off games...no other states have done that as far as I know. So making each class more equal in number makes more sense then dropping playoff games. Iowa 4A football has operated under the premise that it takes 700 students in enrollment for 3 grades to be successful in 4A play. I am not sure why that number was established as the minimum standard.
This post was edited on 12/6 7:33 AM by tnobd
This post was edited on 12/6 9:04 AM by tnobd
Has this poor dead beaten horse been turned to glue yet?
I used to be very pro-conference, but these days I'm leaning towards pro-district. After seeing what the IHSAA did with the west, I'm confident they can keep key rivalries, while making more games competitive.
Screwloose is right, you'll have more sleepers who sneak in to the playoffs, but when 32 of 48 teams make playoffs, does it really matter? You'll get some filthy brutal ugly slobberknockin matchups in the first round like there always is. On the positive side, you'll get more competitive regular season games, which is think will bring more people to the games, and give some teams some confidence which will hopefully give them more success and encourage them not to give up.
I used to be very pro-conference, but these days I'm leaning towards pro-district. After seeing what the IHSAA did with the west, I'm confident they can keep key rivalries, while making more games competitive.
Screwloose is right, you'll have more sleepers who sneak in to the playoffs, but when 32 of 48 teams make playoffs, does it really matter? You'll get some filthy brutal ugly slobberknockin matchups in the first round like there always is. On the positive side, you'll get more competitive regular season games, which is think will bring more people to the games, and give some teams some confidence which will hopefully give them more success and encourage them not to give up.
Districts are back on the table. Schools are fighting about schedules. Basically saying F it and let the state decide who plays who.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Look for an "inside deal" to emerge. The straightaway thing to do is to proceed to 4A districts on the East side of the state, and then to realign 4A districts across the state to reflect changes in 4A membership. But the IHSAA has a member of their Board of Control in the mix of this (CRX principal), so whatever the "inside deal" is should be baked in by the next meeting. CRX should be playing 3A (or the appropriate class based on BEDs, as they do in every other sport). Instead, watch for an "inside deal" as a position advanced.
I continue to root for 4A districts in Eastern Iowa, but doubt that they will survive an "inside deal". Too bad, as I would expect administrators to promote what is best for their school community, not an "inside deal".
I continue to root for 4A districts in Eastern Iowa, but doubt that they will survive an "inside deal". Too bad, as I would expect administrators to promote what is best for their school community, not an "inside deal".
So exactly what information do you have proving that Tom Keating is trying to game the system, or even that he has a vested interest in keeping Xavier in 4A?
I have made this point before, and you never seem to get it. Xavier wants to stay in the MVC. If the MVC can retain its autonomy as a football conference, Xavier would prefer to stay in it. If that means playing 4A football, so be it. However, if the conference can't stay together, and the state steps in to control districts and scheduling, I really doubt Xavier would volunteer to play up in 4A. It's that simple: MVC survives, Xavier stays in. Districts created, Xavier probably goes 3A.
Originally posted by loco60:
Too bad, as I would expect administrators to promote what is best for their school community, not an "inside deal".
And who are you to say playing 4A in the MVC is not "best for [Xavier's] school community"? Why wouldn't conference membership be a valid reason to make a deal, "inside" or not? Why not let the school administrators make their own decisions about what's best for their school community? Why have you come up with this Keating/IAHSAA conspiracy theory? From where I sit, it's the MAC holding all the power here. If they can't agree on scheduling, it seems like districts are about the only way out. I really would be surprised if the state ended up with 9 4A independents along the Mississippi trying to work out schedules ...
I will be open about where I'm coming from. Xavier has a history and reputation as a 4A school and MVC member, and I would be sad to see that go away. If there's a way that can be found to keep the MVC and MAC together, that would be my personal preference, just for historical and traditional reasons. But, if there's no conference to keep the tradition going, then Xavier should play in their size-appropriate class.
I also trust Xavier's administration to make their determination in the best interests of the school. I have no reason to think they're doing anything underhanded or sinister, or that they really have any power to control the outcome other than that they are one of 14 MVC members.
This post was edited on 12/7 4:56 PM by KidSilverhair
I have made this point before, and you never seem to get it. Xavier wants to stay in the MVC. If the MVC can retain its autonomy as a football conference, Xavier would prefer to stay in it. If that means playing 4A football, so be it. However, if the conference can't stay together, and the state steps in to control districts and scheduling, I really doubt Xavier would volunteer to play up in 4A. It's that simple: MVC survives, Xavier stays in. Districts created, Xavier probably goes 3A.
Originally posted by loco60:
Too bad, as I would expect administrators to promote what is best for their school community, not an "inside deal".
And who are you to say playing 4A in the MVC is not "best for [Xavier's] school community"? Why wouldn't conference membership be a valid reason to make a deal, "inside" or not? Why not let the school administrators make their own decisions about what's best for their school community? Why have you come up with this Keating/IAHSAA conspiracy theory? From where I sit, it's the MAC holding all the power here. If they can't agree on scheduling, it seems like districts are about the only way out. I really would be surprised if the state ended up with 9 4A independents along the Mississippi trying to work out schedules ...
I will be open about where I'm coming from. Xavier has a history and reputation as a 4A school and MVC member, and I would be sad to see that go away. If there's a way that can be found to keep the MVC and MAC together, that would be my personal preference, just for historical and traditional reasons. But, if there's no conference to keep the tradition going, then Xavier should play in their size-appropriate class.
I also trust Xavier's administration to make their determination in the best interests of the school. I have no reason to think they're doing anything underhanded or sinister, or that they really have any power to control the outcome other than that they are one of 14 MVC members.
This post was edited on 12/7 4:56 PM by KidSilverhair
Evidence:
1. Did not recuse himself from this matter in that he represents both IHSAA and CRX.
2. Previously let IHSAA policy trump school policy, without objection, on much more important matter.
3. Does not provide insight as to why football is treated differently at CRX, given clear opportunity to petition for 3A status rather than existing rule of conference membership. Other sports at CRX participate in the MVC and participate in their classification in post-season.
4. Has NOT instituted survey to gain feedback and perspective from school community.
5. Has NOT represented the differing views of the CRX community evenly (and differing views do exist).
My view is not emotionally attached to the MVC or the associated IHSAA rule for 4A football (unique as it is).
#3 is particularly biting...CRX must maintain 4A status amidst an obvious opportunity to align with schools its size so as to satisfy some "pride or nostalgia" thing? Girls soccer has eight consecutive championships, playing regular season games in the MVC and tournament games in a lower class. Boys soccer has a number of championships, same deal. Girls basketball, same type of thing. Even the 4A football champions had other state titles that year in alignment with their population. I think the track title was the highest score ever, but I haven't taken time to verify it.
The process can work itself through, we'll see what comes about.
1. Did not recuse himself from this matter in that he represents both IHSAA and CRX.
2. Previously let IHSAA policy trump school policy, without objection, on much more important matter.
3. Does not provide insight as to why football is treated differently at CRX, given clear opportunity to petition for 3A status rather than existing rule of conference membership. Other sports at CRX participate in the MVC and participate in their classification in post-season.
4. Has NOT instituted survey to gain feedback and perspective from school community.
5. Has NOT represented the differing views of the CRX community evenly (and differing views do exist).
My view is not emotionally attached to the MVC or the associated IHSAA rule for 4A football (unique as it is).
#3 is particularly biting...CRX must maintain 4A status amidst an obvious opportunity to align with schools its size so as to satisfy some "pride or nostalgia" thing? Girls soccer has eight consecutive championships, playing regular season games in the MVC and tournament games in a lower class. Boys soccer has a number of championships, same deal. Girls basketball, same type of thing. Even the 4A football champions had other state titles that year in alignment with their population. I think the track title was the highest score ever, but I haven't taken time to verify it.
The process can work itself through, we'll see what comes about.
Coming this Sunday, Five Sullivan Brothers Convention Center...KidSilverHair vs. loco60 in a 15-foot high steel cage!
You too are bickering like a couple of old broads...just fight each other and get it over with.
You too are bickering like a couple of old broads...just fight each other and get it over with.
I will not engage in a steel cage match. But I can appreciate the intended humor behind such a comment.
I believe I have expressed my views without rancor or malice. That is always my aim or intent, perhaps not always achieved in execution. I do realize that criticism of the CRX principal can be considered as sniping, but I think my concern that he effectively represents the IHSAA and CRX is appropriate in a governance situation. Accordingly, I cited a few things that could've been done to represent the CRX community.
I have been clear in my advocacy for 4A districts on the East side of the State of Iowa. I have also not held the MVC in high regard, largely because of an enduring record of performance that is uneven across the conference.
In the predecessor note, the blogger asked about what evidence I had. So I replied. The blogger also invoked language that painted my views as conspiracy minded or suspecting something sinister. Instead, my language was that of an "inside deal". I think "inside deals" happen all the time well below the level of conspiracy or sinister methods. I could easily be wrong in my assessment, which I acknowledged.
I believe I have expressed my views without rancor or malice. That is always my aim or intent, perhaps not always achieved in execution. I do realize that criticism of the CRX principal can be considered as sniping, but I think my concern that he effectively represents the IHSAA and CRX is appropriate in a governance situation. Accordingly, I cited a few things that could've been done to represent the CRX community.
I have been clear in my advocacy for 4A districts on the East side of the State of Iowa. I have also not held the MVC in high regard, largely because of an enduring record of performance that is uneven across the conference.
In the predecessor note, the blogger asked about what evidence I had. So I replied. The blogger also invoked language that painted my views as conspiracy minded or suspecting something sinister. Instead, my language was that of an "inside deal". I think "inside deals" happen all the time well below the level of conspiracy or sinister methods. I could easily be wrong in my assessment, which I acknowledged.
I'll take all comers! Even with my current broken ankle! This cast is a dangerous weapon, you know. Bring it!
To reply to some of your points:
1 - This is not an issue with Xavier on one side and the IAHSAA on the other. I see no need for Keating to recuse himself.
2 - I am not sure what this is in reference to. Again, this football classification issue is not a case of a conflict between school policy and state policy anyway.
3 - Football IS different from other sports, as far as how the state sets up the system. Because all schools enter into tournament play in other sports, there is no need for a way to determine qualifiers. If Xavier chose to play 3A, the other MVC schools would never agree to taking the hit in playoff points they'd endure with a 3A team on the schedule. Not to mention the difficulties and complications of figuring Xavier's 3A playoff spot if they aren't in a district.
4 - I would agree a survey wouldn't be a bad idea.
5 - Again, I don't know what you mean here. I have talked to Keating personally about this issue, and I believe he's trying to take all facets of this issue into account.
*Sigh* Let me try to express myself here.
A - Yes, just for my personal preference, I would like to see the MVC survive in football, with Xavier as a member. Yes, that's mainly due to the pull of tradition and "nostalgia," as you put it. It's purely my opinion.
B - If the MVC and MAC can't come to an agreement and district play comes into eastern Iowa, I have no problem with Xavier playing as a 3A school, where they fit enrollment-wise.
C - Again, in my opinion, I have not been convinced that districts would be any better overall than the current conference setup. There are parts of the district system that would be an improvement; there are also parts that would be detrimental. In my opinion, I don't see a change as being worth the loss of tradition, history, and the other positives of conference affiliation.
Did I mention that was just my opinion?
I don't think I can add any more light to what I think, with the full realization that what I think isn't worth a hill of beans in this crazy world. I'm just about to the point of not caring what these 4A schools decide to do, but just decide already. Personally, I would like to see the MVC and MAC live on. I would like to see Xavier continue as a full member of the MVC. I would be interested to see regular season games between the MVC and MAC. But, if that doesn't end up happening, seeing Xavier play in a 3A district is totally fine.
I also think, in the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that." I've expressed my opinions, knowing I have absolutely zero impact on what actually happens. So I'll try to keep my trap shut on this issue for now. Whatever happens, happens.
1 - This is not an issue with Xavier on one side and the IAHSAA on the other. I see no need for Keating to recuse himself.
2 - I am not sure what this is in reference to. Again, this football classification issue is not a case of a conflict between school policy and state policy anyway.
3 - Football IS different from other sports, as far as how the state sets up the system. Because all schools enter into tournament play in other sports, there is no need for a way to determine qualifiers. If Xavier chose to play 3A, the other MVC schools would never agree to taking the hit in playoff points they'd endure with a 3A team on the schedule. Not to mention the difficulties and complications of figuring Xavier's 3A playoff spot if they aren't in a district.
4 - I would agree a survey wouldn't be a bad idea.
5 - Again, I don't know what you mean here. I have talked to Keating personally about this issue, and I believe he's trying to take all facets of this issue into account.
*Sigh* Let me try to express myself here.
A - Yes, just for my personal preference, I would like to see the MVC survive in football, with Xavier as a member. Yes, that's mainly due to the pull of tradition and "nostalgia," as you put it. It's purely my opinion.
B - If the MVC and MAC can't come to an agreement and district play comes into eastern Iowa, I have no problem with Xavier playing as a 3A school, where they fit enrollment-wise.
C - Again, in my opinion, I have not been convinced that districts would be any better overall than the current conference setup. There are parts of the district system that would be an improvement; there are also parts that would be detrimental. In my opinion, I don't see a change as being worth the loss of tradition, history, and the other positives of conference affiliation.
Did I mention that was just my opinion?
I don't think I can add any more light to what I think, with the full realization that what I think isn't worth a hill of beans in this crazy world. I'm just about to the point of not caring what these 4A schools decide to do, but just decide already. Personally, I would like to see the MVC and MAC live on. I would like to see Xavier continue as a full member of the MVC. I would be interested to see regular season games between the MVC and MAC. But, if that doesn't end up happening, seeing Xavier play in a 3A district is totally fine.
I also think, in the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that." I've expressed my opinions, knowing I have absolutely zero impact on what actually happens. So I'll try to keep my trap shut on this issue for now. Whatever happens, happens.
I think the MVC should hold their ground, they don't need the MAC. This has only come up because the MAC wants to gain a competitive edge vs the MVC. What has to happen is that the Eastern side of the State needs to find away to gain a competitive edge vs the Western side of the State.
Maybe they should just consider making a Super Conference with four subdivisions, then the state would have no control over scheduling.
Maybe they should just consider making a Super Conference with four subdivisions, then the state would have no control over scheduling.
On Xavier, I don't see why they would want to drop to 3A when they have had so much success at a 4A level, districts or conferences. I get the 700 number the IHSAA has, but I'll be honest, I think 3A would give Xavier no competition. Why would they want to give up being a powerhouse in the best class of high school football in the state?
Does anybody else wonder if ADs and the big boys in Boone hop on this forum? When the West went district, they ended up doing something pretty similar to what somebody posted on here if I remember correctly. I think the Boone boys are overpaid, and us regulars probably do their job for them! There's my conspiracy theory!!!
I guess I'm in the thinking that districts will give more competitive games, and get people through the gates. I don't really care what they do anymore, but then again, my team went 0-9 this year, and I want to see a couple W's against some small 3A school.
Does anybody else wonder if ADs and the big boys in Boone hop on this forum? When the West went district, they ended up doing something pretty similar to what somebody posted on here if I remember correctly. I think the Boone boys are overpaid, and us regulars probably do their job for them! There's my conspiracy theory!!!
I guess I'm in the thinking that districts will give more competitive games, and get people through the gates. I don't really care what they do anymore, but then again, my team went 0-9 this year, and I want to see a couple W's against some small 3A school.
Heelan gave up so much PRIDE when the dropped from 4A to 3A that they had to put on their jerseys? Iowa City Regina looks absolutely nostalgic in winning 4 titles in a row in different classes? Pride and nostalgia, great reasons for CRX to remain in 4A? Those poor folks from Heelan and Regina, missing out on pride and nostalgia with only their trophies, medals and memories as consolation.
Since 1972 - 14 Titles for MVC, 12 Titles for MAC. That's 26 titles out of 41, pretty good, eh? This includes 22 out of 27 before 2000 going to Eastern schools.
Since 2000 - 2 Titles for MVC, 2 Titles for MAC. That's 4 titles out of 14, is there a trend?
Bettendorf accounts for more than 25% of the overall East side titles and 50% of the titles since 2000.
It is not easy for me to acknowledge that the "pride and nostalgia" trend for the MVC or MAC is very strong recently
Since 1972 - 14 Titles for MVC, 12 Titles for MAC. That's 26 titles out of 41, pretty good, eh? This includes 22 out of 27 before 2000 going to Eastern schools.
Since 2000 - 2 Titles for MVC, 2 Titles for MAC. That's 4 titles out of 14, is there a trend?
Bettendorf accounts for more than 25% of the overall East side titles and 50% of the titles since 2000.
It is not easy for me to acknowledge that the "pride and nostalgia" trend for the MVC or MAC is very strong recently
"Maybe they should just consider making a Super Conference with four subdivisions, then the state would have no control over scheduling."
Franky,
The Western 4A teams had had a super conference from 2000 until 2011 based on geography. I think it became less popular because Heelan left the MRAC and CBLC did not join that conference. I think the CIML in 2011 with Ankeny Centennial added would have remained in place if the MRAC would have kept their 6 team alignment. It would be an interesting mock up for four Eastern conferences in lieu of districts....still using the point system. 4- non-conference games would give some of the more elite programs some scheduling flexibility.
BTW is Cedar Falls committed to keep both Waterloo East and West on their schedule?
I am not sure how the MAC can gain a competitive edge on the MVC? Do you mean that some of the MAC teams would be aligned in districts that would pair the two best MVC teams into the 1/4 finals...thus allowing a MAC team to always play at the Dome in the semifinals.
This post was edited on 12/10 2:08 PM by tnobd
Franky,
The Western 4A teams had had a super conference from 2000 until 2011 based on geography. I think it became less popular because Heelan left the MRAC and CBLC did not join that conference. I think the CIML in 2011 with Ankeny Centennial added would have remained in place if the MRAC would have kept their 6 team alignment. It would be an interesting mock up for four Eastern conferences in lieu of districts....still using the point system. 4- non-conference games would give some of the more elite programs some scheduling flexibility.
BTW is Cedar Falls committed to keep both Waterloo East and West on their schedule?
I am not sure how the MAC can gain a competitive edge on the MVC? Do you mean that some of the MAC teams would be aligned in districts that would pair the two best MVC teams into the 1/4 finals...thus allowing a MAC team to always play at the Dome in the semifinals.
This post was edited on 12/10 2:08 PM by tnobd
I don't think CF would have it any other way when it comes to playing Wat East and West.
It would bot be in CF's interest not to play two 4A schools less than 10miles away. However I am not sure Wat East would feel the same way. It appears they may be heading back in the direction they were in before Asmus. They have been playing a lot of Freshman and Soph's over the years and still they have the same results. They will have quite a few young returning starters next year and yet I still don't think they will be able to compete. With Asmus their it would be a different story.
I am not sure how the MAC can gain a competitive edge on the MVC? Do you mean that some of the MAC teams would be aligned in districts that would pair the two best MVC teams into the 1/4 finals...thus allowing a MAC team to always play at the Dome in the semifinals.
The MACS theory is if they can play the MVC in the regular season, it would better prepare them for the playoffs. I am not sure you would see the top teams from the MAC playing the Best teams from the MVC. I am not sure how you would determine who the best are.
You have Bettendorf and then you have the rest.
You have IC High, IC West, Cedar Falls and Xavier and then the rest.
When mentioning having a MAC team always in the Semifinals, that is actually what caused the East/West Split. Except that just made sure there was a a East/West finals Match-up, I am not sure why the West has not complained of Valley and Dowling always being in the finals and tried to balance it out. Like put Valley and Dowling in the same District. The MAC can try this route, however there are more traditionally proven playoff teams in the MVC.Let's say a Dav. Central team beats CF in the regular season, this does not translate into a North Scott Team beating CF in the playoffs.From what I understand it is Bettendorf that is major player behind this push. I would think Bettendorf would leave a sleeping dog alone and continue their run over the rest of the MAC and then take their chances in the playoffs. After all they are the only MAC team that has broken through the MVC hold in the playoffs.
If districts come into play, I look for Wat East to play up to 3-3A teams and perhaps only play Wat West and not CF. I look for Wat West to play 1 or two 3a schools along with playing VF and the rest of the 4A. I look for Cedar Falls to play perhaps 3A Waverly and a tough 4A Schdule/
It would bot be in CF's interest not to play two 4A schools less than 10miles away. However I am not sure Wat East would feel the same way. It appears they may be heading back in the direction they were in before Asmus. They have been playing a lot of Freshman and Soph's over the years and still they have the same results. They will have quite a few young returning starters next year and yet I still don't think they will be able to compete. With Asmus their it would be a different story.
I am not sure how the MAC can gain a competitive edge on the MVC? Do you mean that some of the MAC teams would be aligned in districts that would pair the two best MVC teams into the 1/4 finals...thus allowing a MAC team to always play at the Dome in the semifinals.
The MACS theory is if they can play the MVC in the regular season, it would better prepare them for the playoffs. I am not sure you would see the top teams from the MAC playing the Best teams from the MVC. I am not sure how you would determine who the best are.
You have Bettendorf and then you have the rest.
You have IC High, IC West, Cedar Falls and Xavier and then the rest.
When mentioning having a MAC team always in the Semifinals, that is actually what caused the East/West Split. Except that just made sure there was a a East/West finals Match-up, I am not sure why the West has not complained of Valley and Dowling always being in the finals and tried to balance it out. Like put Valley and Dowling in the same District. The MAC can try this route, however there are more traditionally proven playoff teams in the MVC.Let's say a Dav. Central team beats CF in the regular season, this does not translate into a North Scott Team beating CF in the playoffs.From what I understand it is Bettendorf that is major player behind this push. I would think Bettendorf would leave a sleeping dog alone and continue their run over the rest of the MAC and then take their chances in the playoffs. After all they are the only MAC team that has broken through the MVC hold in the playoffs.
If districts come into play, I look for Wat East to play up to 3-3A teams and perhaps only play Wat West and not CF. I look for Wat West to play 1 or two 3a schools along with playing VF and the rest of the 4A. I look for Cedar Falls to play perhaps 3A Waverly and a tough 4A Schdule/
I can't see a 6 team 4A football district in Northeast Iowa that doesn't include Mason City, the two Dubuque schools minus DW. Cedar Falls and the two Waterloo schools...but it sounds like Cedar Falls has a lot of influence on those decisions.
I lived in Cedar Falls for 4 years, both CF and Waterloo seemed like the same community even with the socioeconomics differences that existed in both towns.
I think if all the schools in 4A football change to 8-6 team districts, the IHSAA will have no choice but to use geography for the primary factor when aligning the schools...just like their 8-man through 3A counterparts.
An entire generation of players has past in those other classes...and there hasn't seemed to be any effort by those schools to move the teams into tiers first...before selecting the districts every 2 years.
I lived in Cedar Falls for 4 years, both CF and Waterloo seemed like the same community even with the socioeconomics differences that existed in both towns.
I think if all the schools in 4A football change to 8-6 team districts, the IHSAA will have no choice but to use geography for the primary factor when aligning the schools...just like their 8-man through 3A counterparts.
An entire generation of players has past in those other classes...and there hasn't seemed to be any effort by those schools to move the teams into tiers first...before selecting the districts every 2 years.
Franky
"The MACS theory is if they can play the MVC in the regular season, it would better prepare them for the playoffs. I am not sure you would see the top teams from the MAC playing the Best teams from the MVC. I am not sure how you would determine who the best are."
IMO this is precisely what happened in the CIML to the Central Conference from 2000-2011. It seemed like the Iowa Conference was strong in the CIML until Newton declined and left the CIML too. The result was that Valley played the best teams in the Central Conference and created a cadre of very strong teams in the West....Dowling, Johnston, Urbandale, Ankeny (before the split) and Valley/Waukee/Ames from Iowa Conference.
I could understand if Bettendorf was pushing toward playing the stronger MVC schools...they want a schedule like Valley, Dowling, or SEP to prepare them for the playoffs.
This post was edited on 12/11 12:21 PM by tnobd
"The MACS theory is if they can play the MVC in the regular season, it would better prepare them for the playoffs. I am not sure you would see the top teams from the MAC playing the Best teams from the MVC. I am not sure how you would determine who the best are."
IMO this is precisely what happened in the CIML to the Central Conference from 2000-2011. It seemed like the Iowa Conference was strong in the CIML until Newton declined and left the CIML too. The result was that Valley played the best teams in the Central Conference and created a cadre of very strong teams in the West....Dowling, Johnston, Urbandale, Ankeny (before the split) and Valley/Waukee/Ames from Iowa Conference.
I could understand if Bettendorf was pushing toward playing the stronger MVC schools...they want a schedule like Valley, Dowling, or SEP to prepare them for the playoffs.
This post was edited on 12/11 12:21 PM by tnobd
CF does not have as much influence as you think, they are going to do what is in the best interest of Blackhawk County. They would not leave East and West to fend for themselves. I am sure if Districts come into play, they will always remain on the schedule with Cedar Falls. Would Cedar Falls trade East or West for a high profile match-up, I don't think so. Would East give up Cedar Falls for a lesser opponent, I still don't think so.
If districts happened the only medium I see is this:
Cedar Falls
Wat East
Wat West
Mason City
Ft. Dodge
Marshalltown
Cedar Falls,East and West would then fill out their schedule with Eastern teams
Marshalltown, Ft. Dodge & Marshalltown would do the same in the West.
If districts happened the only medium I see is this:
Cedar Falls
Wat East
Wat West
Mason City
Ft. Dodge
Marshalltown
Cedar Falls,East and West would then fill out their schedule with Eastern teams
Marshalltown, Ft. Dodge & Marshalltown would do the same in the West.
The decision for the three private schools to play 3A football sounds like an invitation to these schools. If you use Heelan as an example, I would think all three schools would move to 3A district football. Based on the article, if these schools move down, then at some point the IHSAA will have to make the decision about the 700 student enrollment threshold for 4A football if they want to move some 3A schools up to the higher class.
IMO all three of these schools will benefit from a move. They would still be allowed to schedule 3 non district games with Metro Cedar Rapids or Quad Cities 4A schools and have their 3 home games with district foes, so their travel is minimized just like Sioux City Heelan. If these schools leave 4A football and the East stays with conferences I don't see how they won't ask from the Mason City, Ottumwa, or Marshalltown list to join these these conferences, to balance out the playoff spots on the short term. If all three schools elect for 3A football, I do think the IHSAA will be creating 4A districts for the remaining 45 teams.
IMO all three of these schools will benefit from a move. They would still be allowed to schedule 3 non district games with Metro Cedar Rapids or Quad Cities 4A schools and have their 3 home games with district foes, so their travel is minimized just like Sioux City Heelan. If these schools leave 4A football and the East stays with conferences I don't see how they won't ask from the Mason City, Ottumwa, or Marshalltown list to join these these conferences, to balance out the playoff spots on the short term. If all three schools elect for 3A football, I do think the IHSAA will be creating 4A districts for the remaining 45 teams.
If there are 45 teams, I wonder if the state goes to nine districts on five teams each. District champion, second and third all qualify automatically and the final five spots go at-large.
I read a somewhat different article. Wahlert will drop to 3A, Xavier will drop to 3A if, Wahlert drops to 3A or the MVC does not keep it's current format. Which means playing the MAC during the regular season. I see the MAC getting their way on this one, which again the MVC does not need the MAC. The MAC is forcing the issue and the MVC has no other choice.
For Assumption, I think this works out well for them. Their road to the Dome will not have to go through Bettendorf.
For Assumption, I think this works out well for them. Their road to the Dome will not have to go through Bettendorf.
Are you wanting Xavier to go to 3A? Do you think Xavier will be the WD Valley of 3A Football? There must be a reason Xavier wants the MVC the way it is or not at all. There must be something about the MAC that does not sit well with Xavier. These are just general questions and not meant to offend anyone or the program.
I see Xavier and Assumption doing well to start out in 3A districts, I don't see Wahlert getting better for a few years. Another article I read stated the Athletic Association wants to limit districts to 120mi radius as much as possible.. Anyways if Xavier moves to 3A football, I will miss the insights that the Xavier supporters have posted on the 4A Board.
I see Xavier and Assumption doing well to start out in 3A districts, I don't see Wahlert getting better for a few years. Another article I read stated the Athletic Association wants to limit districts to 120mi radius as much as possible.. Anyways if Xavier moves to 3A football, I will miss the insights that the Xavier supporters have posted on the 4A Board.
I think if they happened to go to a 9-district format for 45 teams, they're going to stick a lot more to geography...kinda ties in with what franky says he read. However, I still think they'll try to adhere to that tier system whenever possible. That being said, someone was bored(???). Here's what I got.
DISTRICT 1...
West Des Moines Dowling
Sioux City East
Johnston
Des Moines Roosevelt
Council Bluffs Jefferson
DISTRICT 2...
Ankeny
Urbandale
Des Moines Lincoln
Des Moines East
Sioux City West
DISTRICT 3...
West Des Moines Valley
Ames
Council Bluffs Lincoln
Sioux City North
Des Moines Hoover
DISTRICT 4...
Waukee
Ankeny Centennial
Southeast Polk
Indianola
Des Moines North
DISTRICT 5...
Cedar Falls
Marshalltown
Fort Dodge
Waterloo East
Mason City
DISTRICT 6...
Iowa City High
Marion Lin-Mar
Cedar Rapids Prairie
Dubuque Senior
Waterloo West
DISTRICT 7...
Bettendorf
Cedar Rapids Washington
Dubuque Hempstead
Clinton
Davenport North
DISTRICT 8...
Pleasant Valley
Iowa City West
Ottumwa
Burlington
Davenport West
DISTRICT 9...
North Scott
Muscatine
Cedar Rapids Kennedy
Davenport Central
Cedar Rapids Jefferson
DISTRICT 1...
West Des Moines Dowling
Sioux City East
Johnston
Des Moines Roosevelt
Council Bluffs Jefferson
DISTRICT 2...
Ankeny
Urbandale
Des Moines Lincoln
Des Moines East
Sioux City West
DISTRICT 3...
West Des Moines Valley
Ames
Council Bluffs Lincoln
Sioux City North
Des Moines Hoover
DISTRICT 4...
Waukee
Ankeny Centennial
Southeast Polk
Indianola
Des Moines North
DISTRICT 5...
Cedar Falls
Marshalltown
Fort Dodge
Waterloo East
Mason City
DISTRICT 6...
Iowa City High
Marion Lin-Mar
Cedar Rapids Prairie
Dubuque Senior
Waterloo West
DISTRICT 7...
Bettendorf
Cedar Rapids Washington
Dubuque Hempstead
Clinton
Davenport North
DISTRICT 8...
Pleasant Valley
Iowa City West
Ottumwa
Burlington
Davenport West
DISTRICT 9...
North Scott
Muscatine
Cedar Rapids Kennedy
Davenport Central
Cedar Rapids Jefferson
CRX doesn't have anything against the MAC to the best of my knowledge.
CRX plays by the rules, and the rule was that to be a member of the MVC they had to participate in football. The MVC was, by rule, 4A. Those rules are likely to change, or are in the midst of change. I think the main change involves any realignment of the MVC, not specifically games with the MAC.
CRX plays within its enrollment classification at tournament time in all other sports. The MVC rule made football different. Now that the rule is likely to change, CRX goes to the default approach.
CRX plays by the rules, and the rule was that to be a member of the MVC they had to participate in football. The MVC was, by rule, 4A. Those rules are likely to change, or are in the midst of change. I think the main change involves any realignment of the MVC, not specifically games with the MAC.
CRX plays within its enrollment classification at tournament time in all other sports. The MVC rule made football different. Now that the rule is likely to change, CRX goes to the default approach.
Latest word. Talked to a coach in the MVC. Going to districts. Assumption, Wahlert and Xavier are all dropping to 3A. Initially they were doing the crossover games and keeping the MAC and MVC, but nobody could agree to schedules.
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