Marv Cook rumor
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This is what cid fails to understand. Iowa city Regina population base and resources from a school district of somewhere around 100,000 people beat south winn polulation of around 1,000. If you don't see what's unequal about that you are an obvious liar. Yeah way to go, you won a rigged contest.
Liar? Not at all. I have always acknowledged there are advantages. Always have been, since the school opened. It has always been a private school, it has always been in Iowa City..... Now that things have clicked and they are on a record setting run it has become unfair and there needs to be rules put into place to change that. Seems pretty fair, when Regina was lucky to have a game go the distance because they were getting beat by 50 nobody was pushing for rule changes to help them. Guess what, the school was still private and still in Iowa City with all of the advantages that brings. Their decision? Complain to the state? Want rule changes? Heck they almost dropped the sport, instead they started looking at successful programs, even rural ones, started hiring better coaches, put in a weight program, working harder and guess what, they got better. It is an interesting way to approach a problem. So continue to complain, point fingers out and tell everyone why it won't work and how unfair it is. Fairly certain the school isn't going public or moving so those excuses will still be there. Sports are cyclical and this will end as all things do.
I've been on both sides of this issue and maybe I still do ride the fence a little but I thought about this last week watching the state volleyball championships. Dike New Hartford just won their 4th title in a row. They happen to beat the same private school all 4 years in doing so. In the 1980's Dike won 6 titles in a row. They didn't go on a tear like that in the 90's but they were still very good. I think they had an "off decade" and only won 1 title in the 90's. And yet, nobody was calling for rules to punish them. As a matter of fact- if you look what happened in that part of the state- schools like Tripoli, Grundy center, Sumner- Fredricksburg- they all became much better at volleyball so they could compete with programs like Dike New Hartford. Look at how many of your state volleyball qualifiers are from that part of the state. At one point while I taught there- Dike had made the state volleyball tourney something like 22 out of 25 years! The student section used to take a sign to the state volleyball tournament when it was held at SE Polk that read, "Welcome to the Dike Invitational".
I guess my point is that there is no doubt ICR has advantages, such as the ones cidhawkeye pointed out. In my mind their biggest advantage is their coaching staff and I don't know what people expect anybody to do about that. It is what it is and if they keep winning- we'll all just have to deal with it.
So yes, private schools have advantages and because there are so few of them compared to public schools- it does seem unfair when an 8 team field in a state tourney is made up of half private schools when they constitute such a small percentage of school districts in our state. You can put a multiplier on them, but that would really hurt the private schools that are not flourishing- and I'm not sure that is the result we want. I would guess ICR could care less if you sent them to class 2A. Schools like ICR, Dowling, Heelan- you are not going to affect them with rule changes.
The debate is interesting.
And as public school advocates, let's not pretend public schools do not attempt to "persuade" students to come their way.
I'm also leary of everybody expecting "big brother" to step in and solve all of the perceived ills in the world. Sometimes you just have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get to work. Talent runs in cycles. For some- it seems the cycle never ends and I'm sure some schools are waiting for their cycle to start. Bottom line is- it is high school sports- find kids who want to work hard, coach 'em up, and accept the results.
I guess my point is that there is no doubt ICR has advantages, such as the ones cidhawkeye pointed out. In my mind their biggest advantage is their coaching staff and I don't know what people expect anybody to do about that. It is what it is and if they keep winning- we'll all just have to deal with it.
So yes, private schools have advantages and because there are so few of them compared to public schools- it does seem unfair when an 8 team field in a state tourney is made up of half private schools when they constitute such a small percentage of school districts in our state. You can put a multiplier on them, but that would really hurt the private schools that are not flourishing- and I'm not sure that is the result we want. I would guess ICR could care less if you sent them to class 2A. Schools like ICR, Dowling, Heelan- you are not going to affect them with rule changes.
The debate is interesting.
And as public school advocates, let's not pretend public schools do not attempt to "persuade" students to come their way.
I'm also leary of everybody expecting "big brother" to step in and solve all of the perceived ills in the world. Sometimes you just have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get to work. Talent runs in cycles. For some- it seems the cycle never ends and I'm sure some schools are waiting for their cycle to start. Bottom line is- it is high school sports- find kids who want to work hard, coach 'em up, and accept the results.
Very good points. Talked to a relative in the Iowa City area and he said the word around Iowa City is after this Senior Class, Regina will struggle. Their numbers are down in the lower levels. So take it for what its worth, but apparently they are not as strong in the lower levels. Maybe they will get better, but I can tell you this. Regina wins because the coaches know how to coach and motivate their players beyond what they are capable of doing. They are sound coaching staff and any public schools would be lucky to have them. These guys put in countless hours to better their players.
Sorry about the 6 classes I forgot about 8 man football. Never seen it played and don't know much about it.
You act as if no one thought this was a problem before regina. That would be incorrect. This is not a regina problem.
Again: How do public schools fair when there is a private school in the area? Davenport? Cedar Rapids? Sioux City, Ft Dodge? Mason City? In general,when they have strong private teams the public school stinks; the very same thing you saw happen in Iowa City. Once powerful city high and west have certainly fallen in recent years with the rise of regina. I doubt Sabers is all of the sudden a bad coach.
I love it when the excuse is that people are sending their kids to regina for the superior education yet Marv Cook sends his daughter to west. I wonder why he has two kids in two different locations? Could it be that for some parents sports trump everything else. I wonder how the number of kids who have spent 13 years at south winn compare to the number of kids that spent 13 years at regina. Point of that stat being; Iowa city metro probably has around 1,200 seniors (just a guess) that could possibly be attending regina, your average 1A school might have 60.
Since you think this is a regina thing, you can make pretty much the same case for every other private school outside a few rural private schools.
You act like open enrollment is a viable (and equal) option for everyone, it's not. Throw a 10 mile radius around Iowa city, cedar rapids, des moines, davenport, sioux city and compare that to a 10 mile radius around a typical 1A or 2A iowa school, the numbers are pretty clear.
Last, let's look at resources: Decorah, Waverly, pella, grinell, mt vernon, all do very well in sports and just happen to have additional resources of a college in town. It's not a coincidence.
Throw in the fact that your public schools have 99% of the IEP/behavior problem kids and the unbalance gets greater and greater.
If Marv Cook happens to go to West, you will see small pockets of boys, before they reach high school, change their educational plans. It doesn't take but a few quality kids to switch to a small 1A school to completely change a football team. It's not simply marv cooks fantastic coaching skills that have made regina a winner so quickly. You plant him in a small 1A iowa town with a limited population I promise he would not have had the same results he had in a town that has about 1,200 seniors every year.
This is not just a regina thing.
This post was edited on 11/20 10:51 AM by Bulldogs1974
Same old, same old, City has been on the receiving end of kids leaving Regina to go to City, is Sabers all of a sudden a bad coach? No idea but to only get 30 some kids out for the team says something is wrong in that program. Kids aren't leaving City to go to Regina that is for certain. West continues to win in football so I am not certain how that applies. As far as Marv having kids at two separate schools you would have to ask him why that is the case. It would be interesting to see how many kids have been at South Winn the entire time, they have 6.73% of their enrollment OE in so who knows. So maybe we should just start a division with schools that have colleges or universities so they don't have to play the teams that don't have such advantages? When that doesn't solve the problem what is next, schools with a higher snowfall separated from the schools with a lower snowfall, what about whether there is a river that runs through the town, I mean there has to be some underlying reason that all of these things are happening. As far as planting Marv and that staff in a small town I can promise you that program would improve and be better than they have been. These kids at Regina have been together for awhile and people casting stones and attributing their success to anything other than talent, hard work and coaching is mistaken.
In a one game scenario Regina can compete with a lot of teams in this state. However, if you think they are better than West and can run the gauntlet schedule they ran this year and still make it to quarterfinals then you are on crack. They simply do not have the depth to do that week in and week out. One game schedule vs. a season long schedule is not apples to apples. Silly argument.
The number problem is state wide, not just at City High. I believe Regina's numbers are even down. High school football is in trouble IMO of surviving the next 20 years.
As everybody's numbers continue to decline, I believe Regina and other private schools advantages over these schools will continue to grow.
I understand Regina didn't win state championships from day one. I understand they didn't always have this coaching staff and that they won't always have this coaching staff. However, I do know the game of football has changed drastically in the last 10-15 years. I also know that many states have went to multipliers/ separate classes/ etc. These states did not have multipliers from day one, they adapted with the game.
Good luck to Regina, you have worked hard and earned everything you have achieved. If you guys get bumped up next go-around, please don't give up. You're too good of kids.
As everybody's numbers continue to decline, I believe Regina and other private schools advantages over these schools will continue to grow.
I understand Regina didn't win state championships from day one. I understand they didn't always have this coaching staff and that they won't always have this coaching staff. However, I do know the game of football has changed drastically in the last 10-15 years. I also know that many states have went to multipliers/ separate classes/ etc. These states did not have multipliers from day one, they adapted with the game.
Good luck to Regina, you have worked hard and earned everything you have achieved. If you guys get bumped up next go-around, please don't give up. You're too good of kids.
Yeah, see in order for depth to be an issue, players would actually have to be injured, first.......and you can't/shouldn't assume they will be, either.
City has a bigger drop than most in numbers in recent years. As far as 'many' states putting in a multiplier that is where the definition of many is important, if far less than half is many than many states have put in a multiplier. I probably would go with few but that is just semantics.
Last time I Checked can't anyone open enroll to any school? for example if I live in Town A and Town B has a good football program, can't i open enroll to their school if I want to?? Open enrollment is the issue with some of these schools being so bad.
Of course these larger towns are going to have better numbers, its the way Iowa has been heading the last 10 years. Schools are starting to consolidate and now some of these small towns are being forced to play with other towns. While the larger cities are making it and schools are holding just fine (some large schools numbers are down as well). Regina is in a populated area, but their numbers are not WAY HIGH, like some other schools. In Dubuque they used to have something like 8 private elementary schools and now their down to 3-4. Not as many kids going through the school system as in the past.
Regina is just feasting on the fact that their coaching staff is better than most. Marv Cook does not sit a junior high football game and say, "I want that RB from City High, lets get him in here." Majority of their players are kids who grew up in the private system. Its the same at Dubuque Wahlert, Davenport Assumption, even CR Xavier. These kids go through the private schools and when they are successful at high school everyone thinks they were recruited in. Its complete BS, these coaches do no recruit or go out to get these kids. These go through their AAU program or "feeder" program that their school sets up and by the time they get to High School they are pretty good. No fault to the kids or the school, if they have dedicated parents to work with these kids, then who cares.
I have seen an increase in private schools enrollment lately, because of the poor public schools doing so poorly on testing and other issues. Parents are making the sacrifice to send their kids to private schools because they do not like the public schools. Is that the private schools fault for allowing them in?
So according to this argument any school in a populated area should automatically be forced to play a class or two higher. How is that fair when their enrollment dictates they play in that class? I just don't get the big uproar over that. Your numbers dictate what class you play in.
Of course these larger towns are going to have better numbers, its the way Iowa has been heading the last 10 years. Schools are starting to consolidate and now some of these small towns are being forced to play with other towns. While the larger cities are making it and schools are holding just fine (some large schools numbers are down as well). Regina is in a populated area, but their numbers are not WAY HIGH, like some other schools. In Dubuque they used to have something like 8 private elementary schools and now their down to 3-4. Not as many kids going through the school system as in the past.
Regina is just feasting on the fact that their coaching staff is better than most. Marv Cook does not sit a junior high football game and say, "I want that RB from City High, lets get him in here." Majority of their players are kids who grew up in the private system. Its the same at Dubuque Wahlert, Davenport Assumption, even CR Xavier. These kids go through the private schools and when they are successful at high school everyone thinks they were recruited in. Its complete BS, these coaches do no recruit or go out to get these kids. These go through their AAU program or "feeder" program that their school sets up and by the time they get to High School they are pretty good. No fault to the kids or the school, if they have dedicated parents to work with these kids, then who cares.
I have seen an increase in private schools enrollment lately, because of the poor public schools doing so poorly on testing and other issues. Parents are making the sacrifice to send their kids to private schools because they do not like the public schools. Is that the private schools fault for allowing them in?
So according to this argument any school in a populated area should automatically be forced to play a class or two higher. How is that fair when their enrollment dictates they play in that class? I just don't get the big uproar over that. Your numbers dictate what class you play in.
I don't want to mislead anyone to what I refer to as "many" and what you refer to as a "few". From what I gathered from this article, about 18 states have a multiplier or separate class of some sort. 7 states are actively discussing a multiplier.
What I find interesting is some states use multipliers only for the small schools.
http://highschoolsports.cleveland.com/news/article/-4000324031846785879/ohsaas-competitive-balance-referendum-the-latest-round-in-a-national-fight-between-public-and-private-schools/
Also CID, the first multiplier was set up in 1999. So all the old stories of when Regina was a doormat happened before the time that the multiplier was invented.
This post was edited on 11/20 3:43 PM by rkhemp
So now it's a multiplier OR a separate class, good thing we are staying consistent... What have been the results of the multiplier? Did you add the states in that use a success ratio to determine classes or how Minnesota does it, are they included in the 18?
Folks, I think the issue that it really the catalyst for most of the private school discontent (including mine) is when a private school is successful at a higher level and then drops to a lower level. Regina wins state titles at the 2A level and rather than stay at that level of competition, their numbers fall and they choose to drop down. Heelan played in 4A for years with 3A enrollment, and still made the title game 6 times, winning 2 I believe. Then, all of the sudden they decide that they don't want to play 4A ball anymore because their numbers are 3A. As referenced before, year one they miss the playoffs, and now have made 6 of 8 title games. Last year, Xavier makes the 4A title game, and now decide that they can't handle 4A ball and drop to 3A?
I think its the image that is given off that people are so upset about, not simply "oh, they can recruit" or "look at their talent pool". The fact that private schools are finding success at higher levels, only to drop classifications simply because they now chose to is the issue that people have.
I think its the image that is given off that people are so upset about, not simply "oh, they can recruit" or "look at their talent pool". The fact that private schools are finding success at higher levels, only to drop classifications simply because they now chose to is the issue that people have.
You must not have been reading the boards much, it's primarily, recruit, location, high priced coaches, no special ed program, few discounted lunch kids etc. the numbers told Regina where to go, from a senior class of 24 players to one with 9. It's a numbers game. And as pine says, Harlan was never asked to move up, Emmetsburg keeps moving down.... Start the petition to move successful public schools up...
I know this is off-topic, but Western Dubuque "bad"? Where do you get that from?
Western Dubuque tied for the District 4 title. They had only one district loss, to Solon. They had the best offense in all of District 4, better than Solon, Xavier and DeWitt Central (who had a pretty good offense this year). I would hardly call them "bad."
Back to the topic: First, Regina would love to play 4A competition. I think they've asked West and City High in the past, but the 4A schools have absolutely no interest or incentive to play down. I seriously doubt that will ever happen unless the state steps in, and I don't really see why they would.
I have also heard the rumors of Marv Cook to West. I don't have any inside info, but I would not be surprised for it to happen. Drew is graduating, his daughter is already at West ... plus when West replaced Sauser this season, they basically elevated an assistant coach in what looks like a rather obvious interim move. I think they are just keeping the seat warm for Cook to move over next season.
If Regina wins the title today, what more does Cook have to prove in 1A? Winning five championships in a row (two in 2A, three in 1A) - what's the point of staying there? Making something happen in 4A seems like a good move to me.
We've been over this before. Xavier didn't move to 3A because they "can't handle 4A ball." One state title and four Dome playoff appearances between 2009 and 2013 would prove that. Thery've always been a 3A-sized school choosing to play up in the 4A MVC. The MVC no longer applies to football. With districts established on the east side, and the historical and competitive links of conference football no longer a factor, why wouldn't Xavier play in their assigned classification?
I can't comment about Heelan choosing to play up in the past. But it doesn't apply to Xavier (or Regina) in any case. Your numbers fall; your classification changes. Applies to all schools, public or private.
Staying consistent? LOL. Kinda like when you turn private school topic into a OE discussion. Please keep me informed of your rules and I will try hard not to break them. Anyways, "many" states have some sort of competitive balance method, whether it is multiplier or separate classes. I included the link for anyone to look at and come to your own conclusions. I believe some sort of success ratio with a multiplier is what is needed in Iowa. Will Iowa be the next state to change their classification system for competitive balance? I believe so. Do the MAJORITY of schools in Iowa want a change? The answer is absolutely.
This post was edited on 11/21 2:22 PM by rkhemp
They lost to Solon by 29 points and they lost to West Delaware by 26. They also lost to a mediocre Decorah team and it took them OT to beat (3-7) Wahlert. Maybe bad is a slight overstatement but they certainly aren't good and have no business beating a semi-finalist. How is their offense better than Solon? They only averaged 22 ppg which ranked 30th in 3A.
Western Dubuque is not that great of a team, they had a nice game plan against Xavier, and Xavier had an off game, with turnovers and such, but other than that their season is average at best. I am not sure why they were brought up in this thread, just clarifying something.
That was not their plan. They were turned down by Miller from Solon, Williamsburg coach withdrew and so did Morrissey from Prairie.
You're right, I forgot they were going after some coaches immediately after Sauser left. I guess my thought was after they got turned down by those guys, they started thinking ahead to Cook in 2015. I might be completely wrong here, just speculating.
Agree Pinehawk. I wouldn't leave Regina if I were him. He has it made there.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Xavier was playing up...they, and the other private MVC schools had the option to stay in 4A and didn't.
CID, don't be a rube. I'm well aware of what has been said on these boards. You and I have gone round and round about this many times.
I have long said forget multipliers, forget playing up. Separate private and public and let the private schools figure out "fairness" amongst themselves and the publics can determine "fair" on their own.
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