The "official" start of high school baseball begins today! I am a traditionalist...I like baseball in the summer in Iowa. Many will disagree, but for the majority of the players, it is much better than freezing and having a minimal schedule due to bad weather in the spring. Love this time of year!
Let Baseball Begin!
- Thread starter Kurt Whiton
- Start date
You have a point, but that does not fit the majority of the kids playing, I believe. My son can make the 4 FB camps he wants to attend...they are on Sundays and/or don't have a conflict with baseball. Let's enjoy track and golf (when the weather cooperates) and then move on baseball...under the lights, light breeze, on a perfect summer evening! I like the Iowa way of doing it!
Not only that, but the hs baseball players with an actual future in the sport (college/pro) can play 50 additional games (besides the 20-25 they could play during a spring hs season) in a summer legion schedule.
Like pretty much every other state in America.
Do you feel players are missing opportunities to play in college or the pros because of the schedule? Or they are further behind by missing those 50 legion games? Not stirring just curious.
University of Virginia - July 21 - July 24 - sorry son, can't go, districts and substate
University of Missouri 7/21 ? 7/23 - sorry son can't go districts and substate
Creighton 7-10 sorry son game that day
Kansas State - July 28 - Nope, sorry son state baseball
As for all of this garbage about choosing sports in the spring.... move golf to fall - 99% of those kids don't play football, same for soccer. In other states soccer and golf are both in the spring. Now your down to track and baseball. yup, you will lose a few but that's how it goes.
How in the world can every other state accomplish this but in Iowa....nope. You don't think they had the same concerns in every other state...You might as well concede that baseball in Iowa will go the way of Wyoming and Montana....
University of Missouri 7/21 ? 7/23 - sorry son can't go districts and substate
Creighton 7-10 sorry son game that day
Kansas State - July 28 - Nope, sorry son state baseball
As for all of this garbage about choosing sports in the spring.... move golf to fall - 99% of those kids don't play football, same for soccer. In other states soccer and golf are both in the spring. Now your down to track and baseball. yup, you will lose a few but that's how it goes.
How in the world can every other state accomplish this but in Iowa....nope. You don't think they had the same concerns in every other state...You might as well concede that baseball in Iowa will go the way of Wyoming and Montana....
Guess what? The association isn't in the business of helping a handful of kids get recruited, nor should it be. It's in the business of giving kids the chance to play as many sports as possible. And playing baseball in the summer accomplishes that much more effectively than packing everything into the school year. Baseball is a summer sport, and why more midwest states don't keep it that way is beyond me. The weather here sucks in February, March and April. It's not at all conducive to playing baseball; and many other states really don't play, either. They have seasons drastically affected by poor field conditions all the time. It's insane that they insist on keeping it in the spring when they rarely have good enough weather to truly support the sport.
As far as giving kids the summer to do what they want to do? That's more of a parent issue than a kid issue, IMO. If you'd rather go on vacation or dick around all summer than play ball, then feel free to do so. Nobody's forcing you to play. But 90% of the time when I had a player or teammate leave during the season for a family vacation, it wasn't by their choice. They'd much rather have stayed and played ball, but they don't exactly have much say in those things.
I'm sure if your son was really being recruited by these schools, they would understand why you couldn't come down. Had a pitcher invited to a private workout by Missouri a few years ago during our season. Sent him and dealt with being short a player for 3 games. Would assume most coaches (unless its district and state time) would understand this situation.
Iowa Baseball is great in part because it is played during the Summer. As for kids playing another 50 Legion games...they don't need it. Why do you think there is such a correlation to specialization and increase in injuries (for all sports). I commend the State of Iowa for giving kids the opportunity to play multiple sports without overlap. Now, if we could just get some regulations on how much contact football and basketball have during the summer.
Iowa Baseball is great in part because it is played during the Summer. As for kids playing another 50 Legion games...they don't need it. Why do you think there is such a correlation to specialization and increase in injuries (for all sports). I commend the State of Iowa for giving kids the opportunity to play multiple sports without overlap. Now, if we could just get some regulations on how much contact football and basketball have during the summer.
All good points for playing in the summer. I agree...if a kid is a D1 player in football, he can make the choice of going to a camp or playing baseball. If they are D1 baseball player, same thing. Most coaches wouldn't stand in the way if they are that good. The numbers are too few to change to spring ball. My son might have a chance to play D1 football and I don't think it is going to be an issue during his final SUMMER season of baseball.
Let's be honest here. Realistically, how many D-I scholarship football athletes does Iowa really produce each year? My guess it affect much less athletes than you would think.
It doesn't produce a ton of D-1 players every year, but there is a pretty solid number each year that play at some level after high school Grand View had a lot of former Iowa preps on its national championship team this past season, and the state is always well represented at schools like Simpson, Central, Wartburg, etc.
On whether college coaches care or not:
Quote: "I have you at #3 on our board and I have #4 coming in. I don't think we will have time with camps and recruiting in this area to make it to Iowa but make sure we have your schedule and we will see what we can do. I understand and good luck...Keep in touch".
They don't care and nor should they. That's why if Iowa keeps this going then you will have crappy high school baseball because travel teams will take over as they already are. So enjoy it while it lasts because it will wind up like Wyoming and Montana.
I am willing to bet that a lot of people on the side of keeping it this way are....well....from Podunk IA? sound off on which 1A school you all are a part of.
Quote: "I have you at #3 on our board and I have #4 coming in. I don't think we will have time with camps and recruiting in this area to make it to Iowa but make sure we have your schedule and we will see what we can do. I understand and good luck...Keep in touch".
They don't care and nor should they. That's why if Iowa keeps this going then you will have crappy high school baseball because travel teams will take over as they already are. So enjoy it while it lasts because it will wind up like Wyoming and Montana.
I am willing to bet that a lot of people on the side of keeping it this way are....well....from Podunk IA? sound off on which 1A school you all are a part of.
I'm a summer baseball advocate for all the reasons that have been noted in this thread plus a few others. I never have really understood why so many spring baseball advocates are such zealots about moving the season to the spring. I appreciate their arguements, but what exactly does it fix? It's a unique Iowa tradition that's important to the communities and players that participate in it.
I like to deal in numbers so here's a few I dug up related to some of the arguements in this thread.
SPRING v SUMMER BASEBALL
Minnesota maximum number of HS games allowed = 20. With the season over 1/2 over, some teams have played just 5 games. Several teams are on track to get their games in and have played 10 or 11.
Wisconsin maximum number of HS games allowed = 26. Last years tourney champions played a total of 28 games.
Iowa maximum number of HS games allowed = 40, excluding state tourney games.
46 Iowa schools played more than 40 games last season, with SC East (4A), Central Clinton(3A) and Van Meter(1A) all playing 43. North Fayette and Roland Story lead 2A with 42.
D1 Football players from Iowa.
A quick peak of FBS-D1 rosters from around the region (Neb, Wis, Iowa, ISU, Mizzou, Illinois, , KU, KSU) show 67 Iowans.
Expand that number to include some of the regional FCS-D1 schools (SDSU, UNI, MSU, Drake, South Dakota, NDSU) and the count of Iowans jumps to 183.
So for just a limited number of regional D1 schools, Iowa is generating somewhere between 36 and 46 athletes per year(depending if you assume 5 or 4 years of eligibilty).
This is a limited snapshot of our region. Throw in the rest of the country for D1 and junior college participants who will make a D1 roster eventually and you're looking at some pretty significant numbers.
D1 Baseball Players from Iowa
According to Perfect Game, 86 players from Iowa have signed with a D1 programs since 2010. This number is probably low because it is self-reported and because you have to participiate in PG to be in their system. Also, there have been Iowans that have been drafted out of HS since 2010.
I have four points to make out of all this:
1) It seems to me that Iowa kids who want to pursue their sport at the next level are finding a way to get it done. As a parent, I've been there with the recruiting and visibility struggles, so I am not pretending that it's easy. But it is being done.
2) Do we think shifting baseball's start date back 8 weeks is going to significantly impact the number of Iowans playing D1 in either of these sports? I mean, are either of those numbers going to jump by 10%? 20%? just because baseball is played in the spring?
3) I've focused on the D1 aspect of all this, but I agree, it's not the IAHSAA role to generate D1 athletes.
4) Yes, it's a slow day at work.
Edited for formating...
This post was edited on 5/9 11:53 AM by gg2224
I like to deal in numbers so here's a few I dug up related to some of the arguements in this thread.
SPRING v SUMMER BASEBALL
Minnesota maximum number of HS games allowed = 20. With the season over 1/2 over, some teams have played just 5 games. Several teams are on track to get their games in and have played 10 or 11.
Wisconsin maximum number of HS games allowed = 26. Last years tourney champions played a total of 28 games.
Iowa maximum number of HS games allowed = 40, excluding state tourney games.
46 Iowa schools played more than 40 games last season, with SC East (4A), Central Clinton(3A) and Van Meter(1A) all playing 43. North Fayette and Roland Story lead 2A with 42.
D1 Football players from Iowa.
A quick peak of FBS-D1 rosters from around the region (Neb, Wis, Iowa, ISU, Mizzou, Illinois, , KU, KSU) show 67 Iowans.
Expand that number to include some of the regional FCS-D1 schools (SDSU, UNI, MSU, Drake, South Dakota, NDSU) and the count of Iowans jumps to 183.
So for just a limited number of regional D1 schools, Iowa is generating somewhere between 36 and 46 athletes per year(depending if you assume 5 or 4 years of eligibilty).
This is a limited snapshot of our region. Throw in the rest of the country for D1 and junior college participants who will make a D1 roster eventually and you're looking at some pretty significant numbers.
D1 Baseball Players from Iowa
According to Perfect Game, 86 players from Iowa have signed with a D1 programs since 2010. This number is probably low because it is self-reported and because you have to participiate in PG to be in their system. Also, there have been Iowans that have been drafted out of HS since 2010.
I have four points to make out of all this:
1) It seems to me that Iowa kids who want to pursue their sport at the next level are finding a way to get it done. As a parent, I've been there with the recruiting and visibility struggles, so I am not pretending that it's easy. But it is being done.
2) Do we think shifting baseball's start date back 8 weeks is going to significantly impact the number of Iowans playing D1 in either of these sports? I mean, are either of those numbers going to jump by 10%? 20%? just because baseball is played in the spring?
3) I've focused on the D1 aspect of all this, but I agree, it's not the IAHSAA role to generate D1 athletes.
4) Yes, it's a slow day at work.
Edited for formating...
This post was edited on 5/9 11:53 AM by gg2224
It is great that Iowa has this tradition and hope that it continues. However, look at numbers in baseball. Schools are struggling to keep kids playing in this area. I won't say that every school is having this but there are quite a few that are. For those of you that don't think it's IHSAA's responsibility to generate D1 athletes, is it there responsibility to make sure kids are not getting in trouble and have a busy lifestyle?
"One of the things that (school administrators) have said is that they like playing in the summer because it gives their kids something to do," said Roger Barr, who along with Todd Tharp is one of the two contact people for baseball at the IHSAA. "If they're playing in the summer, we know they're under a little bit of supervision because they're playing ball and they're going to practice and stuff like this. It keeps them occupied and doing something during the summer."
On your numbers on Minnesota and Wisconsin, well climates are still a bit different and Wisconsin has these numbers because they split their seasons. Nebraska's game count is considerably higher than both of those and climate is pretty much identical.
Creighton Prep - 28 games so far - not including make up dates
Lincoln schools 27 so far- not including make up dates
So Nebraska is pretty close to being on par with the number of games that we play in Iowa - on average about 26 - 28 so far this year.
On the recruiting topic, this is not just about baseball. Baseball will suffer more in the future with how things are going with football and basketball. With all of these combines and 7 on 7 tournaments popping up more and more kids will have to choose in the future. This is the direction of football like it or not. Combines, camps, etc. and they occur for the most part from may to July so that they can squeeze in the elite camps and combines. Also, travel teams for baseball are getting bigger and bigger and teams from all over the country are looking for kids to play. I have seen kids from Iowa playing for teams out of Texas, Oklahoma, Kentucky, etc. so as recruiting in baseball gets more directed at the travel ball teams more kids will jump ship.
Yes people will find a way but with tournaments like this popping up more and more
http://www.pgsuper25nationals.com/
it will keep them from Iowa High School baseball. I know quite a few kids that are hitting this tournament from Iowa and they will be skipping some of their high school baseball games for it.
"One of the things that (school administrators) have said is that they like playing in the summer because it gives their kids something to do," said Roger Barr, who along with Todd Tharp is one of the two contact people for baseball at the IHSAA. "If they're playing in the summer, we know they're under a little bit of supervision because they're playing ball and they're going to practice and stuff like this. It keeps them occupied and doing something during the summer."
On your numbers on Minnesota and Wisconsin, well climates are still a bit different and Wisconsin has these numbers because they split their seasons. Nebraska's game count is considerably higher than both of those and climate is pretty much identical.
Creighton Prep - 28 games so far - not including make up dates
Lincoln schools 27 so far- not including make up dates
So Nebraska is pretty close to being on par with the number of games that we play in Iowa - on average about 26 - 28 so far this year.
On the recruiting topic, this is not just about baseball. Baseball will suffer more in the future with how things are going with football and basketball. With all of these combines and 7 on 7 tournaments popping up more and more kids will have to choose in the future. This is the direction of football like it or not. Combines, camps, etc. and they occur for the most part from may to July so that they can squeeze in the elite camps and combines. Also, travel teams for baseball are getting bigger and bigger and teams from all over the country are looking for kids to play. I have seen kids from Iowa playing for teams out of Texas, Oklahoma, Kentucky, etc. so as recruiting in baseball gets more directed at the travel ball teams more kids will jump ship.
Yes people will find a way but with tournaments like this popping up more and more
http://www.pgsuper25nationals.com/
it will keep them from Iowa High School baseball. I know quite a few kids that are hitting this tournament from Iowa and they will be skipping some of their high school baseball games for it.
I still say the biggest problem with baseball in Iowa is not when it starts. It's coaches not being able to have contact with players except for pitchers. Catchers are only allowed to catch at these throwing sessions, can't work on anything else. No contact with hitters until practice starts. Sorry to say, the majority of schools in Iowa are 2A and smaller and not all have access to hitting facilities or people to run them. Other sports contact in the summer. Football is running 7 on 7, basketball is doing AAU. Because it's during the summer anything goes. I'm a former coach and this is what I was up against.
Interesting article in Collegiate Baseball Newspaper: http://baseballnews.com/epitome-of-being-unfair-in-baseball/
It looks like the PG tourney you posted has the potential to interfere with summer and at least one spring baseball state. It also looks like the PG guys, with their Iowa roots, tried to cut summer ball a break for the regional qualifiers, scheduling them either before or after the HS season depending on age group.
I do agree, if an Iowa team qualifies for the super regionals and they elect to play at PG, they'll miss 4 days of regular season ball from June 19-23, (since HS ball isn't typically played on Sunday). This schedule also happens to conflict with Wisconsin's championship games on the 19th.
If Iowans happen to win the Midwest Super Regional and qualify for the PG Nationals, there will only be a conflict if they're HS team is also playing in the Iowa Substate Finals and then again if they win and advance to the state championship.
So as for probable impact, how many high school players statewide in a given year are really going to be in a position to decide between a national title chance or a state title chance?
I don't really disagree with any of your statements. I actually am concerned about most of the same things you are concerned about. I just don't see how shifting Iowa to spring baseball offers a significant fix to any of these issues. Even for the issues it might solve, it simply introduces other conflicts or problems to manage with, IMO, little net improvement.
I do agree, if an Iowa team qualifies for the super regionals and they elect to play at PG, they'll miss 4 days of regular season ball from June 19-23, (since HS ball isn't typically played on Sunday). This schedule also happens to conflict with Wisconsin's championship games on the 19th.
If Iowans happen to win the Midwest Super Regional and qualify for the PG Nationals, there will only be a conflict if they're HS team is also playing in the Iowa Substate Finals and then again if they win and advance to the state championship.
So as for probable impact, how many high school players statewide in a given year are really going to be in a position to decide between a national title chance or a state title chance?
I don't really disagree with any of your statements. I actually am concerned about most of the same things you are concerned about. I just don't see how shifting Iowa to spring baseball offers a significant fix to any of these issues. Even for the issues it might solve, it simply introduces other conflicts or problems to manage with, IMO, little net improvement.
The rules here for all sports P*SS me off. Not only baseball but football as well. Other states have spring football, summer camps, training seasons.....Iowa, get out of the dark ages and get on board with the rest of the world.
Oh my....good article but Mazey was part of a TCU program that was notorious for offering scholarships to underclassman only to renege on those offers. So I am on the fence on anything he has to say.
Will this happen? Nope. http://www.ncaa.com/news/baseball/article/2012-02-29/big-ten-mulling-summer-baseball
To much money and influence in the southern schools. But I agree with you 100%. Our varsity coach mentioned that same exact thing to me at a spring game a few weeks ago.
Oh my....good article but Mazey was part of a TCU program that was notorious for offering scholarships to underclassman only to renege on those offers. So I am on the fence on anything he has to say.
Will this happen? Nope. http://www.ncaa.com/news/baseball/article/2012-02-29/big-ten-mulling-summer-baseball
To much money and influence in the southern schools. But I agree with you 100%. Our varsity coach mentioned that same exact thing to me at a spring game a few weeks ago.
It's not so much about the timing of that tournament and others like it. It's commitment...how can my son commit to a tournament that occurs during districts and state not knowing the outcome of those games. The guys running those teams cannot rely on my son and whether or not his high school teams makes it to state...they want an answer know and they also have to finalize rosters. So the conflict occurs right now and not then. Unless of course your team sucks and you know won't make it that far...but you never know.
BTW there were a few scholarships offered on site at this tourney when it was held in North Carolina so how can Iowa compete with the lure of that for kids?
Perfect Game cutting Iowa a break? That's funny. It coincided more with weather than with helping out Iowa. It also coincides with the spring wood bat league getting over and having that regional flow right over so that those kids were ready to go. That is my opinion on that topic and is in no way stated by anyone associated with PG.
Moving to spring does one thing first and foremost...moves inline with the rest of the country. If the rest of the country moves baseball to summer than all is good. Then we are all on the same plane.
This post was edited on 5/9 2:14 PM by oonfoofoo
BTW there were a few scholarships offered on site at this tourney when it was held in North Carolina so how can Iowa compete with the lure of that for kids?
Perfect Game cutting Iowa a break? That's funny. It coincided more with weather than with helping out Iowa. It also coincides with the spring wood bat league getting over and having that regional flow right over so that those kids were ready to go. That is my opinion on that topic and is in no way stated by anyone associated with PG.
Moving to spring does one thing first and foremost...moves inline with the rest of the country. If the rest of the country moves baseball to summer than all is good. Then we are all on the same plane.
This post was edited on 5/9 2:14 PM by oonfoofoo
Travel teams are taking over in Iowa? Since when? I've known guys who have played on travel teams, but it's never stopped them from playing with their high school teams, too.
Baseball is slipping in popularity nationwide. Asking kids in Iowa to suit up during the typical Midwest spring isn't going to change that within our borders. If anything, it'll only accelerate the decline in popularity, because more kids will look at the weather and decide to leave baseball alone.
For the record, I did play at a "podunk" school (Wayne). But I don't think the state should cater to the handful of elite players in 4A when the majority of the state fits the "podunk" description. There are roughly 48 schools with 700 or more students (according to BEDS), and there are roughly 300 schools with fewer than 700. If we're going to turn this into a debate of which kind of schools the state should do more to serve, the smaller schools are going to win that one.
The association's job is to give kids the opportunity to compete in as many sports as possible and provide a level playing field for everyone involved (at least as best as possible). That's the whole point behind high school athletics, not getting athletic scholarships. If you and your kids want to put your emphasis on that, go ahead. But that's not the association's business. It shouldn't be, and you'd be a fool to think they're going to make it their business in the future.
Ah, now we are getting somewhere. But first, didn't mean to say travel ball was taking over in Iowa...and I didn't say that but it will happen. I know guys that are currently playing travel ball all over country and it is taking over especially in those areas that require recruiting to be done at that level.
Baseball is slipping in popularity nationwide....why? In my honest and always correct view specialization and soccer. Specialization will kill baseball in Iowa especially if it is continued in the summer. Football and Basketball will continue to get bigger in the summers and specialization will dominate as it already is. Great that Iowa is the land of 5 sport athlete...yeah!!! That's great....here's your participation award.
Asking kids to suit up in a Midwest spring? What? Hmmmm 47 of which Nebraska, Utah, Minnesota, South Dakota, North Dakota, Illinois, Michigan... and the list goes on.
last time I checked:
1) track - outside...in the spring
2) soccer - outside....in the spring
3) golf - outside...in the spring
EVERY SPRING SPORT IS PLAYED OUTSIDE....What are you talking about?
I am not talking about the elite athlete or 4A / 3A. 47 states feel the same way as do the majority of coaches in Iowa.
Move it to spring, build back up the legion program and you get small town Iowa baseball happy again. Look at your local town team and how that is going. Bring in summer legion ball and you revive small town Iowa and its interest in baseball.
This post was edited on 5/9 3:27 PM by oonfoofoo
Baseball is slipping in popularity nationwide....why? In my honest and always correct view specialization and soccer. Specialization will kill baseball in Iowa especially if it is continued in the summer. Football and Basketball will continue to get bigger in the summers and specialization will dominate as it already is. Great that Iowa is the land of 5 sport athlete...yeah!!! That's great....here's your participation award.
Asking kids to suit up in a Midwest spring? What? Hmmmm 47 of which Nebraska, Utah, Minnesota, South Dakota, North Dakota, Illinois, Michigan... and the list goes on.
last time I checked:
1) track - outside...in the spring
2) soccer - outside....in the spring
3) golf - outside...in the spring
EVERY SPRING SPORT IS PLAYED OUTSIDE....What are you talking about?
I am not talking about the elite athlete or 4A / 3A. 47 states feel the same way as do the majority of coaches in Iowa.
Move it to spring, build back up the legion program and you get small town Iowa baseball happy again. Look at your local town team and how that is going. Bring in summer legion ball and you revive small town Iowa and its interest in baseball.
This post was edited on 5/9 3:27 PM by oonfoofoo
You really enjoy thinking of your opinion as fact, don't you? Show me some actual evidence that suggests Iowa coaches want baseball to be played in the spring, instead of just saying the majority would like it to change (because I don't know a single coach who would agree with that, and I highly doubt you know the opinions of more than maybe a dozen coaches out of the 300-350 of them out there). And just because 47 other states play in the spring doesn't mean it's the right course for Iowa.
Other spring sports are played outdoors, yes. But baseball participation numbers would almost certainly drop at most schools, simply due to the fact that it will be competing with other sports for players and will inevitably lose some. Guys who want to specialize in football and feel they need to run track will drop out of baseball, which is no different than what those guys might choose to do if the choice is between baseball and camps in the summer. Even if baseball numbers didn't drop, then participation in the other sports would drop. 1A and 2A schools, especially, simply don't enough athletes to go around to support two major sports that both require larger rosters.
As for your assertion that legion ball would revitalize interest in baseball for smaller communities, please explain how that works? You're either going to get all the kids who would play for a high school team, or you'd only get the more die-hard players. Either way, legion ball wouldn't generate new interest in the sport.
I just don't see travel ball causing that big of a deal. How many kids even participate in Perfect Game or AAU in Iowa? And how many of those athletes AREN'T students in the CIML/MAC/MVC school system? Show me the demand for travel ball, and then I'd be willing to consider what the state should do about keeping high school baseball solvent. Because you only seem to be worried about what happens when travel ball takes over, which there don't seem to be any signs that it's going to happen anytime soon. Participation in PG and AAU might be the norm in your social circles, but it doesn't apply for most of the state's players. And until it does, there is no need to change.
US baseball participation from the NFHS surveys over the past six years.
Nationally, a 0.7% drop in participation from '08 to '13. Still a slight recovery over the past 2 years.
I'm trying to track down the Iowa numbers. I'll post them if I can find them.
2012-2013 474,791
2011-2012 474,219
2010-2011 471,025
2009-2010 472,644
2008-2009 473,184
2007-2008 478,029
Nationally, a 0.7% drop in participation from '08 to '13. Still a slight recovery over the past 2 years.
I'm trying to track down the Iowa numbers. I'll post them if I can find them.
2012-2013 474,791
2011-2012 474,219
2010-2011 471,025
2009-2010 472,644
2008-2009 473,184
2007-2008 478,029
Not to mention gate revenue would go way down due to the weather, and soccer\track players that would have to juggle one more schedule in Iowa "multi-sport athlete is the norm (there are several kids at our school that do both track and soccer and have to decide which game\meet is more important and attend that -throw baseball in the mix you are gonna see a decline in one of the sports).
I do believe the coaches should be able to be in contact with the players much like football\etc.
I definitely think the rules should be tweaked to favor baseball a little more. Other sports can't have coaching running drills during the school year out of season (not supposed to be running tackling drills during basketball season, for example), either. But summer is a free-for-all, where it's okay for anyone and everyone to coach their players. Baseball/softball are the only sports that don't also get this benefit.
And any school that's good at either sport at least bends those rules. I worked with a catcher who told pitchers to intentionally throw balls in the dirt during winter pitching practices so he could work on his blocking technique, and he always worked on coming out of his stance like a running was stealing. Nobody was coaching him, but he made the most of his time; coincidentally, he happened to be the best catcher I've ever been around. When I was playing, my dad was the coach and he would open up the indoor batting cage throughout the year. Not nearly enough guys took advantage of that (it was usually just me and one other player), but you have to do that if you want to get better. Baseball is easily the toughest sport to master without year-round work being put in, but it's the sport with the most restrictions that prevent players from putting in that work effectively.
And any school that's good at either sport at least bends those rules. I worked with a catcher who told pitchers to intentionally throw balls in the dirt during winter pitching practices so he could work on his blocking technique, and he always worked on coming out of his stance like a running was stealing. Nobody was coaching him, but he made the most of his time; coincidentally, he happened to be the best catcher I've ever been around. When I was playing, my dad was the coach and he would open up the indoor batting cage throughout the year. Not nearly enough guys took advantage of that (it was usually just me and one other player), but you have to do that if you want to get better. Baseball is easily the toughest sport to master without year-round work being put in, but it's the sport with the most restrictions that prevent players from putting in that work effectively.
Well tm, you're clearly the odd man out here, as every "cold weather" state except Iowa disagrees with you. They must know something you don't.
Weather "sucks" in spring? Sometimes that's true. But usually it's not. At any rate, it hasn't stopped all those midwestern colleges from playing games March-May. To wit: Since returning from their spring trip (starting March 21st), Iowa has played 30 games in the midwest to date. This, during one of the crappiest springs on record. Now there's a lot of difference between college & high school. But if you're using the worn-out weather excuse, you're basically unarmed.
This post was edited on 5/15 12:12 AM by cruhawk
Baseball, perhaps more than any other sport, involves skills developed by muscle memory honed by extensive repetition. The more you play, the better you are. Nebraska kids, because of the spring hs schedule combined with the summer legion schedule, may play as many as 75 games between the two. Iowa kids, by contrast, may get 40 games in by playing only in the summer. A big difference? Maybe; maybe not. But Nebraska--with half of Iowa's population and the same climate--generates as many or more D-1 baseball players.
Yes I do! Show you actual evidence that coaches want it moved? Ask a few. I just so happen to be around them all of the time and for the most part they want it. Now those little schools that are worried well they don't but tough.
Hey, show me actual fact in the statement " But baseball participation numbers would almost certainly drop" .
Like I said 47 other states can't be wrong....move soccer and golf to fall like everyone else.
Guys who specialize in football for the most part aren't playing baseball anyway. They usually drop out when they realize they have the ability to move on in football and that goes for big town as well as small town.
I didn't say anything about new interest in small towns. I said you can then have legion ball and town team ball in small towns the way it was in the past. I would like fact on "you're either going to get all the kids who would play for a high school team or you'd only get the more die-hard players". Really? I live in a town of 200 people and will tell you that our legion team had kids playing that did not play high school or didn't get much playing time on high school. Why? Because it was legion..it was baseball and it was for their town. Town team? Pair up town team games with legion games and now you have somewhere to go have a beer and watch some ball on a summer night. I will tell you that my kids both play(ed) high school ball and I enjoyed watching them play but it was better to sit in Podunk, IA watching town team with a beer in my hand.
On travel ball...you must not be very knowledgeable of the baseball scene in Iowa. AAU doesn't exist for baseball. It is now USSSA and the numbers? Well go to USSSA.com and look at the rankings for Iowa from 8U to 14U....looks like the numbers are pretty good and they are from small town as well as the cities. As for PerfectGame look at the spring and fall wood bat league teams? There aren't numbers? How many aren't from the big conferences?
http://www.perfectgame.org/events/Rosters.aspx?event=2216
Looks like smaller conferences are well represented.
Hey, show me actual fact in the statement " But baseball participation numbers would almost certainly drop" .
Like I said 47 other states can't be wrong....move soccer and golf to fall like everyone else.
Guys who specialize in football for the most part aren't playing baseball anyway. They usually drop out when they realize they have the ability to move on in football and that goes for big town as well as small town.
I didn't say anything about new interest in small towns. I said you can then have legion ball and town team ball in small towns the way it was in the past. I would like fact on "you're either going to get all the kids who would play for a high school team or you'd only get the more die-hard players". Really? I live in a town of 200 people and will tell you that our legion team had kids playing that did not play high school or didn't get much playing time on high school. Why? Because it was legion..it was baseball and it was for their town. Town team? Pair up town team games with legion games and now you have somewhere to go have a beer and watch some ball on a summer night. I will tell you that my kids both play(ed) high school ball and I enjoyed watching them play but it was better to sit in Podunk, IA watching town team with a beer in my hand.
On travel ball...you must not be very knowledgeable of the baseball scene in Iowa. AAU doesn't exist for baseball. It is now USSSA and the numbers? Well go to USSSA.com and look at the rankings for Iowa from 8U to 14U....looks like the numbers are pretty good and they are from small town as well as the cities. As for PerfectGame look at the spring and fall wood bat league teams? There aren't numbers? How many aren't from the big conferences?
http://www.perfectgame.org/events/Rosters.aspx?event=2216
Looks like smaller conferences are well represented.
Iowa also just installed a synthetic turf infield this year. But the weather also impacts practices, not just games, and prior to the new turf being installed, they had to use either the Bubble or Kinnick to get practice time if the field wasn't playable (which was pretty frequently last season). Except that both the Bubble and Kinnick weren't designed with baseball in mind, and they weren't always available. Iowa high schools don't have the luxury of having facilities like that, so when the field's no good, most of them end up in a gym, if that. They also are unlikely to have fields that are as well-maintained as a college field, and therefore don't handle poor weather as well.
Whether or not other states do it isn't the point. Nobody has come up with a single benefit to changing the way things are currently done, that has anything to do with what the association's mission is. Maybe Illinois, Missouri, etc. all had their reasons for changing to spring ball. But I would bet it had nothing to do with helping kids get to more summer camps or get recruited. If that's the best argument that proponents for change have, then they've got nothing.
What about all the colleges that don't have UI's facilities? They seem to do OK, and have since time immemorial. I played college ball, and you said you went to Wayne St (I'm assuming the one in Neb...which is--or was--anything but "podunk". It was a darn fine D-2 program in the NSIC). So we both played college baseball in the spring...we both should know that it can be played in Iowa without too much drama. What benefit is it to the kids? They will play more games between the spring hs schedule & summer legion ball...just like Nebraska does. The benefits of that arrangment can clearly be seen over there. Having played for Wayne St, you probably played with guys that were from both Iowa & Nebraska. Did they ever talk about this?
I played at Wayne High School in Corydon, IA. I went to college at Iowa and wasn't good enough to play there. But the weather is hardly my only reason against moving baseball. I know at my school, and every school we played against, baseball, track and golf couldn't possibly coexist in the same season. There's far too much overlap in rosters to make that change. At Wayne this year, at least 13 returning baseball players (out of 16) are currently on the golf or track teams. There could be one or two more, but I didn't know for sure on a couple of them. That's how it is at most smaller schools.
Larger schools could probably support spring baseball okay, since there are typically fewer kids who play more than a couple sports. But at 1A/2A schools, they typically have to rely on kids playing three or four sports in order to support their sports year round. There's no clear way to move baseball into the spring without negatively affecting at least one sport.
But in any case, the onus is on those who want the change to show that baseball should be moved to spring. Saying everyone else does it is hardly a good reason. Helping kids get recruited by freeing up the summer isn't any better. There is no real benefit to the average high school athlete in moving baseball to the spring; it only serves to help the top 10% or so of players who might go on to play in college. And it can only hurt the sports that are currently played in the spring. That seems like a pretty easy proposal to toss aside, which is exactly why we're still playing in the summer.
Larger schools could probably support spring baseball okay, since there are typically fewer kids who play more than a couple sports. But at 1A/2A schools, they typically have to rely on kids playing three or four sports in order to support their sports year round. There's no clear way to move baseball into the spring without negatively affecting at least one sport.
But in any case, the onus is on those who want the change to show that baseball should be moved to spring. Saying everyone else does it is hardly a good reason. Helping kids get recruited by freeing up the summer isn't any better. There is no real benefit to the average high school athlete in moving baseball to the spring; it only serves to help the top 10% or so of players who might go on to play in college. And it can only hurt the sports that are currently played in the spring. That seems like a pretty easy proposal to toss aside, which is exactly why we're still playing in the summer.
I don't know if the math or the collection of data is valid but in the other baseball spring/summer thread it shows that Iowa is producing 35% more Div 1 players than Nebraska.
which says what? the population is about 1/3 and they only have one metropolitan area?
And those numbers mean absolutely nothing when it comes to Nebraska. Those numbers are based on Perfect Game registered athletes. My kids all play(ed) in the Omaha USSSA system and I can tell you that the majority of people in Omaha much less west of there in the sticks know absolutely nothing of Perfect Game nor do they attend Perfect Game events.
The number of athletes in Perfect Game that are from Iowa vs. Nebraska would probably be 75 - 25 and that is probably high.
Nice effort though
And those numbers mean absolutely nothing when it comes to Nebraska. Those numbers are based on Perfect Game registered athletes. My kids all play(ed) in the Omaha USSSA system and I can tell you that the majority of people in Omaha much less west of there in the sticks know absolutely nothing of Perfect Game nor do they attend Perfect Game events.
The number of athletes in Perfect Game that are from Iowa vs. Nebraska would probably be 75 - 25 and that is probably high.
Nice effort though
I did qualify my comment as far as the data being gathered. The % is based on per population, not total number of players. Do you have a set of numbers that support your side of the discussion? Having a son that played several tournaments a year in the Omaha border war games I am somewhat aware of the process and like the concept of more games being better. My youngest baseball player is done this year so I don't have a dog in this fight.
Look at the NRB. Of the recruits that are 2014 grads - ignoring Reetz because he didn't need Perfect Game only 4 of those kids attended a PG event and only 3 have numbers - kind of off topic. But the rest of those kids that have signed to play along with a few others that I know of have not attended PG. So right off of the NRB:
15 2014 grads - 4 attended PG events and 1 did the fall wood bat league
of the 2015 grads about 8 of them are going to play 1AA or better and only 1 has attended PG
so of those right there about 18 are unaccounted for in those numbers.
FYI my kid plays for the Frozen Ropes organization in Omaha....basically the group that runs NRB
So basically when you try to compare Iowa to Nebraska against numbers on the Perfect Game site you are going to be lacking a lot on those kids that are playing college. I know that many in Iowa are probably in the same boat but not nearly as many.
15 2014 grads - 4 attended PG events and 1 did the fall wood bat league
of the 2015 grads about 8 of them are going to play 1AA or better and only 1 has attended PG
so of those right there about 18 are unaccounted for in those numbers.
FYI my kid plays for the Frozen Ropes organization in Omaha....basically the group that runs NRB
So basically when you try to compare Iowa to Nebraska against numbers on the Perfect Game site you are going to be lacking a lot on those kids that are playing college. I know that many in Iowa are probably in the same boat but not nearly as many.
Huskers: 7/11 (64%) Nebraskans on their roster have a PG account (i.e., participated in at least 1 event)
Creighton: 6/12 (50%) Nebraskans on their roster have a PG account
UNO: 3/18 (17%) Nebraskans on their roster have a PG account
Neb + BlueJays = 13/23 (57%)
Total: 16/41 (39%)
I believe UNO is just in their 3rd year as a D1 program, so of the 18 Nebraskans, 5 seniors came to the program when it was D2.
I agree that you can't use the PG numbers as an absolute measuring stick between states. There's too much uncertainty.
However, because Iowa's numbers are on par with neighboring states, summer baseball doesn't seem to be hurting those players trying to get to a D1 program. That isn't to say that an Iowa kid might have to take an 'unconventional' route and work a little harder, but they are finding a way to do it. I know my son did, and he's a 5'9", right handed pitcher.
Which brings us back to the original question. If those Iowa kids who want to play at the next level are finding a way to do so and HS participation isn't taking a nose dive, what is the compelling reason for Iowa to switch to spring baseball?
Personally, I don't think there is one.
Creighton: 6/12 (50%) Nebraskans on their roster have a PG account
UNO: 3/18 (17%) Nebraskans on their roster have a PG account
Neb + BlueJays = 13/23 (57%)
Total: 16/41 (39%)
I believe UNO is just in their 3rd year as a D1 program, so of the 18 Nebraskans, 5 seniors came to the program when it was D2.
I agree that you can't use the PG numbers as an absolute measuring stick between states. There's too much uncertainty.
However, because Iowa's numbers are on par with neighboring states, summer baseball doesn't seem to be hurting those players trying to get to a D1 program. That isn't to say that an Iowa kid might have to take an 'unconventional' route and work a little harder, but they are finding a way to do it. I know my son did, and he's a 5'9", right handed pitcher.
Which brings us back to the original question. If those Iowa kids who want to play at the next level are finding a way to do so and HS participation isn't taking a nose dive, what is the compelling reason for Iowa to switch to spring baseball?
Personally, I don't think there is one.
If you are truly a D1 prospect the fact that Iowa plays summer ball will not affect your recruiting process. If a program is interested in you they will find a way to get you in front of them, or you will find a way to get in front of them. Iowa produces just as many D1 guys as any other place (in many cases more) if you compare the numbers you will see that. You as an athlete and the athletes parents have to work at getting your kid noticed, you figure out ways to get them in front of the schools you need too.. My son is a freshman and is already working hard to get in front of schools and getting his name out there. If he doesn't land somewhere its not because he played Summer Baseball!!
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