what do you think explains the recent success of

[DSMan]

Valley and Dowling? I mean ten titles in 15 years and 0 before then? One could say increasing enrollment, but

1) The last time Valley graduated a class of below 400 students was in 1972, the school has always had at least 2000 students historically. I've always thought that whenever people talk crap about Valley, that what they're really talking about is Waukee. The most stereotypically West Des Moines parts of WDM are zoned to Waukee and that's where all the new homes are being built.

2) I was listening to a halftime show during a Dowling game and they said that there are 359 seniors at Dowling which is the biggest senior class in a long time, but that is slightly smaller than the average senior class 30-40 years ago at Dowling.

As to the history of the programs before winning state titles, there isn't much comparison. Dowling had always been "close but no cigar" before 2000, losing at State seven whole times. Valley, OTOH, had been pretty mediocre until about 1992. During a 100 game span from 1992-2000 they were 79-21 which was a precursor to there 01-08 success.

As for coaching, with Valley you really only have one coach (Swenson) responsible for there biggest victories. Crawford (the guy before Swenson) had some success but not anywhere near the scale. I'd compare his teams to Waukee or SEP now. Dowling though has had two separate coaches who have won state and coaching has never been an issue at Dowling save for in the 70s when they fired Jorgenson.

So what do you think it is - just a luck of the draw in terms of talent? Obviously work ethic counts for something (both schools run good weight programs) but at any decent hsfb program, you're going to be expected to be at the weight room a bunch of times a week.

 

[slingitnow]

from my point of view it's all about numbers, they almost or in some cases do double the enrollment of some teams they compete against. When we play either school we can hang around for a half and then it becomes a wear you down exercise. Not only do thier players only go one way they have back-ups that give them a blow so they are always fresh. This years back up is next years starter, therefore they go into next year with a ton of experience and simply re-load! That's allowed to happen by having huge numbers along with good coaches and dedicated players. I come from a great program and we beat other DSM schools however Valley/Dowling seem to just keep bring kids into the games all night long, as my sons says " you loose track of who you're up against because the number is constantly changing"

Sure there is more to it, but numbers is a big part..

 

[GoBigD6788]

According to 2014-15 BEDS numbers, Dowling is 22nd in the state. The CIML schools that are bigger than Dowling are: Valley, DM East, DM Lincoln, Waukee, Johnston, SEP, and DM Roosevelt. So where is this enrollment doubling?

If you're referring to number of players on the team, I can get behind that when it comes to the Metro schools. But I don't agree that "double" the team size of Valley, Waukee, Johnston, or SEP.

To the original query, I'd say that it comes down to the fact that with the modernization of high school football programs, numbers do matter. And the quality of each player is enhanced by a focusing of time, effort, and resources on stepping up to another level. Weight programs, offseason work out sessions, third party speed training, third party QB camps. Go down the list. These kids are being focused to perform at high school programs that are trying to emulate small college programs.

I got a kick out of "stereotypical West Des Moines." From a Des Moines resident's perspective, it's all the same out there.

 

[slingitnow]

I should have been clear, I was not speaking in terms of enrollment rather the number of kids out. And to be clear stating it's double is also unfair however it appears to be significantly higher. For the past few years we have played freshmen on varsity and I seldom see that at the others schools. IMO the number of kids going out makes a significant impact to overall success.

BTW we consider West Des Moines anything east of Atlantic lol

 

[LineDriveHawk]

Bottom line - attendance matters, but not as much as the demographics of the attendance. Valley and Dowling have the two biggest advantages in terms of student demographic than any schools in the state. Not far behind - Waukee, Ankeny (both), Iowa City High, Bettendorf. Not a coincidence that these schools excel in the sport where numbers/depth matter the most.

 

[tigercy]

from my point of view it's all about numbers, they almost or in some cases do double the enrollment of some teams they compete against. When we play either school we can hang around for a half and then it becomes a wear you down exercise. Not only do thier players only go one way they have back-ups that give them a blow so they are always fresh. This years back up is next years starter, therefore they go into next year with a ton of experience and simply re-load! That's allowed to happen by having huge numbers along with good coaches and dedicated players. I come from a great program and we beat other DSM schools however Valley/Dowling seem to just keep bring kids into the games all night long, as my sons says " you loose track of who you're up against because the number is constantly changing"

Sure there is more to it, but numbers is a big part..

 

[tigercy]

It's complicated. Numbers are relevant but only to a small extent (with regard to last 15 years success). As noted, Valley classes have not changed much over the last 15 years and Dowling is already smaller.

• Neither Valley or Dowling have ever substituted in-game much so depth is really not that relevant. Having enough talent to play only one way matters a little but that is not the reason for the last 15 years success. Has been like that forever at Valley and Dowling.
• Obvioulsy, both have great coaching. This matters - a lot. Swenson will retire, Wilson will move on. Next man in may not have "it"?
• Do not discount the great youth football programs in WDM and Dowling Catholic systems (WDM new in the last 15 years). JR high programs are weak in WDM system so that is not it. There is no "system" training at Valley as offense in 8th, 9th and 10th grades have no relation to varsity.
• I know Valley best and it is a painfully deliberate process to build core skills. Step 1 - drill a skill relevant to your position, Step 2 - drill a skill relevant to your position, Step 3 - repeat. Ironically, very little "football" in practice.
• Weight training/speed training is contagious. Once you get it in the program, you likely will not lose it.
• So much of this is about momentum and pride. Younger athletes want to be like older (successful) athletes. Success breeds success if you have coaches and leaders that nurture the success. Same thing exists in these schools in fine arts programs, debate etc.
• Family lineage/stability in community - Valley this year has younger brothers of all state players - Mason, Raridon, Campos, Hinkle. Coming up you have another Mason, another Lombardi, another Yencer

You also have to get lucky with "move-ins" - Both Valley and Dowling benefit from great athlete's families moving to town and looking for great programs for their child to participate in.

This situation exists at all levels in all most sports - Harlan football, ICW basketball, MSM baseball, Dike Volleyball etc etc.

 

[DSMan]

i might add that I've talked with someone who said that a lot of would-be coaches at other schools are assistants at the big-time schools. Put it another way, a coordinator or even a positions coach at a top ten school could easily get a hc job at a weaker school.

 

[SimpsonStorm]

It's complicated. Numbers are relevant but only to a small extent (with regard to last 15 years success). As noted, Valley classes have not changed much over the last 15 years and Dowling is already smaller.

• Neither Valley or Dowling have ever substituted in-game much so depth is really not that relevant. Having enough talent to play only one way matters a little but that is not the reason for the last 15 years success. Has been like that forever at Valley and Dowling.
• Obvioulsy, both have great coaching. This matters - a lot. Swenson will retire, Wilson will move on. Next man in may not have "it"?
• Do not discount the great youth football programs in WDM and Dowling Catholic systems (WDM new in the last 15 years). JR high programs are weak in WDM system so that is not it. There is no "system" training at Valley as offense in 8th, 9th and 10th grades have no relation to varsity.
  
• I know Valley best and it is a painfully deliberate process to build core skills. Step 1 - drill a skill relevant to your position, Step 2 - drill a skill relevant to your position, Step 3 - repeat. Ironically, very little "football" in practice.
• Weight training/speed training is contagious. Once you get it in the program, you likely will not lose it.
• So much of this is about momentum and pride. Younger athletes want to be like older (successful) athletes. Success breeds success if you have coaches and leaders that nurture the success. Same thing exists in these schools in fine arts programs, debate etc.
• Family lineage/stability in community - Valley this year has younger brothers of all state players - Mason, Raridon, Campos, Hinkle. Coming up you have another Mason, another Lombardi, another Yencer

You also have to get lucky with "move-ins" - Both Valley and Dowling benefit from great athlete's families moving to town and looking for great programs for their child to participate in.

This situation exists at all levels in all most sports - Harlan football, ICW basketball, MSM baseball, Dike Volleyball etc etc.

I assume that you have been at every 8th, 9th and 10th grade practice for the duration of a season if you are making these claims. What you view as a "weak" junior high program is the fact that they have 2 Junior High's and athletes get split up. This is why when they come together as Junior and Seniors they are always solid... NUMBERS MATTER. Also, the Freshman and Sophomore's have the same Offensive and Defensive system in place as the varsity. The reason they have not seen as much success as 9th and 10th graders is because more and more kids are getting pulled up to Varsity as Sophomores and to the Sophomore team as Freshman.

I would argue that the youth program has actually had a slightly negative effect in WDM. Valley has not won a State Title since 2011 and 2008 before that. If you look at Valley from 2002 to 2008 (4 titles and 5 Championship appearances in 7 years) there was no WDM little kids football in the area. I would actually be curious as to what year the WDM tackle league started and what year tiger select started. I would gamble to say that none of those kids have won a state title.... yet. However, there was a catholic league. Youth football benefits the kids that are "big" and mature early. There are probably 15 kids at Valley High School that had a negative experience or a concussion playing tackle football at too young of an age so they decided not to play in High School and never got to see their true potential as a mature high school athlete. I think football is the one sport that you do not have to play growing up to excel at it in High School. Skills from basketball, baseball, wrestling, soccer, etc. all translate to skills on a football field. Playing flag football is just as effective at a young age as tackle football.

 

[BigHawk]

Let's address the Elephant in the Room....the difference all comes down to multiple Socioeconomic factors.
Dsm. Roosevelt/Lincoln/East are some of the largest schools in Iowa. But having played Dowling and Valley several times in the past years.........their kids don't look like the public school kids. It all starts at home...the Wdm kids are coming out of households that promote better skills for success. Work ethic..discipline...expectations..and even better "fed" bodies. If you don't think that's and issue you have not been around this game long.

Valley averages over 700 kids per grade and I would bet less than 5% of their schools lives in anything close to poverty.

Add to that better facilities and an expectation and tradition of winning......you have the recipe for success. I'm not taking anything away from the coaches there. There is no question that they are among the best in the business..........but lets put them at Roosevelt and see if they can get anything close to what they are accomplishing at their schools now.

Everyone knows the answer to that.

All of the discussion of a 5A is rather a mute point as the State of Iowa would never acknowledge that Socioeconomic factors are what really separate the competitive nature of our schools.

 

[Qune]

i might add that I've talked with someone who said that a lot of would-be coaches at other schools are assistants at the big-time schools. Put it another way, a coordinator or even a positions coach at a top ten school could easily get a hc job at a weaker school.

DM Roosevelt job is open.

 

[tigercy]

I assume that you have been at every 8th, 9th and 10th grade practice for the duration of a season if you are making these claims. What you view as a "weak" junior high program is the fact that they have 2 Junior High's and athletes get split up. This is why when they come together as Junior and Seniors they are always solid... NUMBERS MATTER. Also, the Freshman and Sophomore's have the same Offensive and Defensive system in place as the varsity. The reason they have not seen as much success as 9th and 10th graders is because more and more kids are getting pulled up to Varsity as Sophomores and to the Sophomore team as Freshman.

I would argue that the youth program has actually had a slightly negative effect in WDM. Valley has not won a State Title since 2011 and 2008 before that. If you look at Valley from 2002 to 2008 (4 titles and 5 Championship appearances in 7 years) there was no WDM little kids football in the area. I would actually be curious as to what year the WDM tackle league started and what year tiger select started. I would gamble to say that none of those kids have won a state title.... yet. However, there was a catholic league. Youth football benefits the kids that are "big" and mature early. There are probably 15 kids at Valley High School that had a negative experience or a concussion playing tackle football at too young of an age so they decided not to play in High School and never got to see their true potential as a mature high school athlete. I think football is the one sport that you do not have to play growing up to excel at it in High School. Skills from basketball, baseball, wrestling, soccer, etc. all translate to skills on a football field. Playing flag football is just as effective at a young age as tackle football.

I actually have been to EVERY 8th, 9th and 10th grade practice for the entire season. Because that is the only way to have a base of knowledge. They are not "weak" because they are split up, however (they win nearly every game). It is just hard to have a productive 70 person squad with 3-4 coaches and 5 games.

No doubt numbers matter - my point is the numbers have not changed much in the last 15 years so that is not the reason for recent success (which was the original question in this thread)

Sorry, but the Freshman and Sophomores do not have the same schemes/plays/numbering system as varsity. I have the playbooks from each. I agree 1, 2 or 3 kids get pulled up one grade. If it is all about numbers, why would this matter then?

Regarding youth FB - WDM tackle started at least in 2003 as my son played in 2004 and it was not the first year. Since then Valley has won 2005, 2008 and 2011. 2008 and 2011 would had kids that played WDM youth tackle football. I agree, BTW, that youth tackle football is not necessary. Where it exists well though, it creates culture, excitement, desire to emulate etc.

 

[DSMan]

t's address the Elephant in the Room....the difference all comes down to multiple Socioeconomic factors.

To me it isn't that much of a big deal. First off, Waukee and Johnston are the two wealthiest districts in the state and they aren't that good at football. Also, around a third of Dowling kids live in the DM Public School system. Third, even when taking these into account, the socioeconomic status isn't as polarized as other states. In neighboring Illinois you can have entire high schools where the majority of the students were raised by there grandparents and other high schools where the median home price is in the high six digits. There's still plenty of economic overlap between the city and suburban schools.

 

[SimpsonStorm]

WDM tackle started in 2003, thus making the people that won it in 2005 Sophomores in high school. I know for a fact that no one on the 2008 team played in a WDM based tackle program. And it is impossible to attend all those practices as they practice at the same time!

 

[LineDriveHawk]

BigHawk - you just hit the nail on the head. DSMan - if you don't think socioeconomic status has a big affect, you are mistaken. Numbers can overcome the socioeconomic affect, but more times than not the Dowling and Valleys of the world have kids with far greater advantages.

 

[WDM_Wolverine]

I can't comment on Dowling but they obviously have some advantages other schools don't..As for Valley a few thoughts.

The enrollment has been fairly steady and no major change in socioeconomic status from the late 80's/early 90's until now. Valley has always had a major advantage in these areas vis a vie other schools.

It took Swenson a few years after his arrival in '97 to get the program rolling. That included dedication to strength and conditioning along with an offensive overhaul. He switched from his Spencer veer option to the I formation halfway through his second year. As a long time observer of the program I think Swenson has won at the level he should. The school has nearly every built in advantage compared to the competition. Crawford severely underachieved.

As for some other topics discussed in this thread.

1) how is the junior high system weak? What is that based on?

2) within the last 2-3 years the system in he Freshman/sophomore levels have become more similar to the varsity. Even more specifically on defense. A few years ago the Freshman ran a 3-3-5 and have now moved to the Varsitys base of 4-3 over. Now the varsity hasn't been in that a lot due to playing mostly spread teams. On offense there is some difference in verbiage and numbering. However, the varsity offense has changed significantly in the last 2-3 years for whatever reason. The coaches are clueless on how to run a spread offense properly.

3) Youth football. As I remember everyone thought this would make Valley even more unstoppable at the Varsity level. Hasn't quite worked that way. The first group that played as pee-wee's in WDM were the Senior class for the '11 or was it '12??? State title team. The argument could be made it has hurt Valley football.

...,.i could go on and on but that is enough for now. Per the recent past next Friday's game between Valley and Dowling will be the defacto state title game.

 

[EastIowaHawk]

If you talk to an old-timer, he will tell you that those schools have been awfully good for the past sixty years. Lots of interest, tradition, and sons, grandsons and great grandsons keep showing up on the roster. And it doesn't hurt to have good coaches and support down through the elementary level.

 

[Larry76]

It's definitely a numbers game for Valley. You could combine Bettendorf and Pleasant Valley into one school (two great programs that are next-door neighbors geographically) and that School would still be smaller than Valley. How many state championships do you think combining those two schools they would have ?? Valley should win it every year

 

[DSMan]

WDMWolverine - Swenson's first year was actually in 95. His first three years were not much different than Crawford-era Valley in terms of W-L, as he went 19-12. The classes of 99 and 00 (Martin, Spellman, Orton, Menard etc) really got the football program off the ground as they were legit contenders both years. I might add that 1998 was the year they switched from the Clemson pawprint to the Virginia V, so maybe it had some magic power (as well as demolishing the Great Depression era stadium).

 

[BigHawk]

To me it isn't that much of a big deal. First off, Waukee and Johnston are the two wealthiest districts in the state and they aren't that good at football. Also, around a third of Dowling kids live in the DM Public School system. Third, even when taking these into account, the socioeconomic status isn't as polarized as other states. In neighboring Illinois you can have entire high schools where the majority of the students were raised by there grandparents and other high schools where the median home price is in the high six digits. There's still plenty of economic overlap between the city and suburban schools.

To me it isn't that much of a big deal. First off, Waukee and Johnston are the two wealthiest districts in the state and they aren't that good at football. Also, around a third of Dowling kids live in the DM Public School system. Third, even when taking these into account, the socioeconomic status isn't as polarized as other states. In neighboring Illinois you can have entire high schools where the majority of the students were raised by there grandparents and other high schools where the median home price is in the high six digits. There's still plenty of economic overlap between the city and suburban schools.

It still comes down to money. Waukee was the second best team in Iowa last year....Johnston is one of four western half teams playing tonight. Both are good but don't beat valley or Dowling much......no one does. If a third of Dowling comes from des Moines...that is still a lot of kids who can afford tuition and traveling which would be more than a lot of kids at des Moines north can. But again...put these coaches at north ..Lincoln..Roosevelt....and see if they can duplicate the results of valley and Dowling.....and we all know the answer to that.

 

[woodsiding]

To me it isn't that much of a big deal. First off, Waukee and Johnston are the two wealthiest districts in the state and they aren't that good at football. Also, around a third of Dowling kids live in the DM Public School system. Third, even when taking these into account, the socioeconomic status isn't as polarized as other states. In neighboring Illinois you can have entire high schools where the majority of the students were raised by there grandparents and other high schools where the median home price is in the high six digits. There's still plenty of economic overlap between the city and suburban schools.

Not acknowledging that socio-economics are indeed a major factor is simply ignorance.

 

[RamBling]

Gotta echo what some have said - success breeds success, but equally if not more important is that success ATTRACTS success. Meaning that when families come to the area or look to move around the area, they naturally gravitate towards programs with a history of success. This is the new norm - no one plays where they live anymore, they play where they feel they have the best chance to "succeed" (whatever that means to them: championships, scholarships, etc) And for football, that means Dowling and Valley. I think Ankeny had that for a time, but the split has created a bit of a pause. No offense intended - but no one moves into the Des Moines area to play at the Metro schools. SEP has seen it recently for wrestling, Waukee (and Des Moines East a few years ago) for Girls Basketball, it goes on and on. Nothing that the IHSAA does will change that, unless they try and draw a hard line on movement between programs.

 

[tigercy]

I can't comment on Dowling but they obviously have some advantages other schools don't..As for Valley a few thoughts.

The enrollment has been fairly steady and no major change in socioeconomic status from the late 80's/early 90's until now. Valley has always had a major advantage in these areas vis a vie other schools.

It took Swenson a few years after his arrival in '97 to get the program rolling. That included dedication to strength and conditioning along with an offensive overhaul. He switched from his Spencer veer option to the I formation halfway through his second year. As a long time observer of the program I think Swenson has won at the level he should. The school has nearly every built in advantage compared to the competition. Crawford severely underachieved.

As for some other topics discussed in this thread.

1) how is the junior high system weak? What is that based on?

2) within the last 2-3 years the system in he Freshman/sophomore levels have become more similar to the varsity. Even more specifically on defense. A few years ago the Freshman ran a 3-3-5 and have now moved to the Varsitys base of 4-3 over. Now the varsity hasn't been in that a lot due to playing mostly spread teams. On offense there is some difference in verbiage and numbering. However, the varsity offense has changed significantly in the last 2-3 years for whatever reason. The coaches are clueless on how to run a spread offense properly.

3) Youth football. As I remember everyone thought this would make Valley even more unstoppable at the Varsity level. Hasn't quite worked that way. The first group that played as pee-wee's in WDM were the Senior class for the '11 or was it '12??? State title team. The argument could be made it has hurt Valley football.

...,.i could go on and on but that is enough for now. Per the recent past next Friday's game between Valley and Dowling will be the defacto state title game.

1) 8th grade systems/coaches were not that strong. Too many kids, too few coaches, too few games. There just was not much development in 8th grade. Still lots of wins, just not much development
2) I agree - except Varsity has become more like 9/10. Having Rocky has developed Swenson's offensive schemes to more like what Bakke runs in 10th and Borness in 9th. I agree about spread but not sure Valley wants/needs to. Plenty of offense from I and zone read stuff recently installed.
3) I agree - pretty neutral on this point. Just looking for what might be different in last 15 years.

WDM socioeconomic situation is changing - currently about 25% free or reduced lunch vs 15% in Johnston, Waukee, Ankeny. New housing (which draws young family/kids is essentially done in WDM school district. if it is socioeconomic, these 4 schools should be dominating. Johnston has never been to quarters (until this year), Waukee had one great team (last year) and Ankeny is not there

To win you consistently in 4a, you need a division 1 player or 2(hopefully in the line) and a freak at QB or RB IMO. In years Valley and Dowling have won, they have been fortunate enough to have that. When Ankeny won they had that. When Bett wins, they have that. Have any state champs in 4a over the last 15 years have not had these components?

 

[WDM_Wolverine]

Most of Valleys title teams have followed that formula. Although I would contend that they didn't have a freak at RB or QB for the last two. They had phenomenal lines and great defenses. Now the first 3 titles featured what I would call awesome tailbacks with Scales and Sandvig.

 

[SimpsonStorm]

Wolverine, Valley had 2 backs over 1200 yards on there 08 team and Trey Lewis had 2200 ish yards. There were STUD high school Running backs. All 3 of them (Cutkomp, Burkett and Lewis). The offensive lines of both teams were also REALLY good. The thing that wins Championships is being a team and having a very cohesive environment on and off the field. Both of these teams had that "it" factor about them.

 

[notlongago]

I think were all missing the most obvious cause. $$$$$$$$. It's not a coincidence the most affluent part of the state has the best football (including the ankeny, waukee, Johnston, etc teams). More money = better training, better food, better equipment, better coaching, and so on. You combine the advancements in biometrics and sports medicine with people that can afford to take advantage of them and this is the result.

 

[GoBigD6788]

I don't think people understand how parishes subsidize Dowling student tuitions. And then how many Dowling students actually get drastically reduced tuitions based on need. Oh, I'm sorry...let's stick with the narrative that everyone who walks into Dowling gets a gold iPad and a hummer.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I don't think people understand how parishes subsidize Dowling student tuitions. And then how many Dowling students actually get drastically reduced tuitions based on need. Oh, I'm sorry...let's stick with the narrative that everyone who walks into Dowling gets a gold iPad and a hummer.

'hummer' The motor vehicle I assume

 

[brownieyo]

I think both programs offer excellent facilities and foster an expectation of success that athletes buy into. One exception that Dowling seems to have capitalized on is utilizing their best athletes no matter what grade at the varsity level. Even it means playing that athlete on both sides of the ball. Swenson has not bought into this as much as Dowling in my opinion. Dowling also appears to do a better job of allowing black athletes- especially at the skill positions opportunities to play on both sides of the ball.