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Tues., March 3- 4A Substate Finals Scores and Comments

EastIowaHawk

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Jan 6, 2008
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Some great matchups tonight in 4A. Who will go to state and will a top 4A power or two stare in disbelief after they were upset?
 
Davenport North, a young team that has won 15 games so far this season, could be trouble for Dubuque Senior if the Rams have a few players at less than full strength. And Luke picked Dubuque Hempstead over Cedar Falls. That would be the upset of the night if that actually happens, which I don't think it will. If anyone has updates tonight, could you post them on all or any of the games.
 
1Q- Dubuque Senior 13, Davenport North 10
Half- Davenport North 29, Dub. Senior 23. Lots of Ram turnovers.
Iowa City West big over Pleasant Valley at the half.
Final- North Scott hits a three at the buzzer to oust West Waterloo in a corrected score..
Final- Davenport North 50, Dub. Senior 48 on a desperation layup basket at the buzzer by North. Passed it in from out-of-bounds with 0.9 seconds left. Oh, my. Cooper Medinger 23 for Senior.
Final- Ankeny Centennial 58, Johnston 42
1Q- Dub. Hempstead 11, Cedar Falls 8
 
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Controversy surrounding the end of the Waterloo West/North Scott game. West scored a go ahead shot with .6 seconds left. North Scott heaves the ball across court, shoots from 27 feet a day after time expired, but the zebras count it anyway, and North Scott wins.
 
1Q- Dubuque Senior 13, Davenport North 10
Half- Davenport North 29, Dub. Senior 23. Lots of Ram turnovers.
Iowa City West big over Pleasant Valley at the half.
Final- Waterloo West hits a three at the buzzer to oust North Scott.
3Q- Davenport North 41, Dub. Senior 33


EIH, North Scott actually won that game, if even in highly controversial fashion. Brutal way for West to have their trip to state taken away from them.
 
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CF_93. Got it. Announcer on the radio gave the wrong score. I'm sure glad sports reporting isn't brain surgery. Same announcer thought Davenport North was late on their buzzer-beater shot, but no replay in high school. Not contested, though, by opposing coach.
 
Cedar Falls holds on to defeat Dubuque Hempstead 53-44. Duax was a one-man gang! 26 of Hempstead’s 44 points.
 
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The controversy surrounding the West/NS game looks like will not be going away anytime soon. West high coach had a few choice words for the clock operators (who were from North Scott no less) This from the Waterloo/Cedar Falls Courier\/\/

“West coach Cliff Berinobis was convinced a slow trigger on the clock, which was manned by North Scott staff, denied his team a landmark achievement.


"At the end of the day, you've got kids in here (the Wahawk lockerroom) and you robbed them," said Berinobis. "Everybody in this building knows it, including the North Scott fans.


"Common sense would tell you that on the catch, out away from the basket, he turns and shoots ... it's not humanly possible. I don't want to discredit them, but that shot shouldn't count and everybody knows it.“

He’s exactly right. With just .6 seconds left, it’s physically impossible to both turn and shoot in that little amount of time. My question is why wasn’t a more impartial or neutral clock operator used? Is this common practice at this time of the year to use one school or another’s clock operators? If so, that seems highly dubious of the IAHSAA to allow that in tournament play.
 
Ankeny 73, SC East 67
Ankeny Centennial 58, Johnston 42
Cedar Falls 53, Dub. Hempstead 44
Davenport North 50, Dubuque Senior 48
West Des Moines Dowling 58, CB Abe Lincoln 35
Iowa City West 65, Pleasant Valley 36
N. Scott 41, West Waterloo 40
Waukee 59, WDM Valley 55

Senior and West Waterloo lose with no time remaining, opponents inbounding with 0.9 and 0.6 seconds on the clock.

Four CIML teams make it to state, two MVC and two MAC.
 
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I guess it is possible to win with less than a second on the clock in a big state tournament game because Dubuque Wahlert did it twice-- the length of the court. The 1981 team went the length of the court in one second, throwing it the length and a player tipping it in for the state semifinal win, and then winning the state championship in the next game, over Dowling, I believe; and the miracle in 2008, with 0.8 seconds to go Wahlert again went the entire length of the court with a baseball throw to Eric May 40 feet from the basket who caught and shot it in one motion for the win in the championship game. Both those were on television, so the clock could be seen. That 2008 tournament championship win, with the score tied with Harlan, will probably never be matched. That 3A team also beat the 4A champion the same year- Mike Gatens and Iowa City High at Iowa City..
 
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That is a tough loss for Waterloo West, dang. Waukee earned the victory over Valley, DeVries was the difference in the game. Valley gave them all they could handle, short Raridon which definitely had an impact in the game. Should be a great tournament next week. I think Centennial is the team to beat, but Waukee is a hand full with their two prolific scorers. Little Sanfort is a very nice under the radar player too.
 
I've timed it a dozen or so times. My estimates range from .9 to 1.4 seconds for the guy with the ball until release. Not a fixable error, but Waterloo West is correct in that was NOT .6 seconds.

The real issue is that there is a culture around athletics that the home clock is supposed to help out the home team. This is simply wrong and unambiguously unethical
 
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My 2 cents

1. Why are the #2 and #3 ranked teams playing before state?

2. I'm guessing that from the time North Scott called a time until the clock was stopped there was a second or more that came off. Because the official would have to recognize the timeout, and the clock operator would have to stop the clock.

Overall it's not a good situation
 
My 2 cents

1. Why are the #2 and #3 ranked teams playing before state?

2. I'm guessing that from the time North Scott called a time until the clock was stopped there was a second or more that came off. Because the official would have to recognize the timeout, and the clock operator would have to stop the clock.

Overall it's not a good situation

more than likely it was due to travel time, unfortunately.
 
My 2 cents

1. Why are the #2 and #3 ranked teams playing before state?

2. I'm guessing that from the time North Scott called a time until the clock was stopped there was a second or more that came off. Because the official would have to recognize the timeout, and the clock operator would have to stop the clock.

Overall it's not a good situation
Correct...just like you can't review the game winning shot....North Scott couldn't get a review on how much time should have been on the clock in the first place. Should there have been over a second left...probably. In a "miracle" shot like this its always going to be debated depending on what side you are on. What is absolutely disgusting is the people attacking the woman who was working the clock. She is a pillar of the community in every sense and has been for decades. To think she had the ability to manipulate the clock by fractions of a second is ridiculous. There is actually video showing the clock starting and it looks on point to when the ball was caught. I don't blame West for being upset and disappointed....but don't direct it towards a woman who was volunteering.
You can debate who should be working the scorers table (directed by the state).
You can debate the timing of the final shot.
It's disgusting to attack the woman working the scorers table.
 
Correct...just like you can't review the game winning shot....North Scott couldn't get a review on how much time should have been on the clock in the first place. Should there have been over a second left...probably. In a "miracle" shot like this its always going to be debated depending on what side you are on. What is absolutely disgusting is the people attacking the woman who was working the clock. She is a pillar of the community in every sense and has been for decades. To think she had the ability to manipulate the clock by fractions of a second is ridiculous. There is actually video showing the clock starting and it looks on point to when the ball was caught. I don't blame West for being upset and disappointed....but don't direct it towards a woman who was volunteering.
You can debate who should be working the scorers table (directed by the state).
You can debate the timing of the final shot.
It's disgusting to attack the woman working the scorers table.

It’s also supposed to be a “neutral court” so why would let a fan of one team be the timekeeper? Even if it is volunteer work, you’d think they have someone not affiliated with any of the competing schools working the clock. Not blaming her, she’s just doing her job, but putting a north scott fan as the timekeeper doesn’t help their case either.
 
It’s also supposed to be a “neutral court” so why would let a fan of one team be the timekeeper? Even if it is volunteer work, you’d think they have someone not affiliated with any of the competing schools working the clock. Not blaming her, she’s just doing her job, but putting a north scott fan as the timekeeper doesn’t help their case either.
I'm assuming every team who hosted had their "fans" working the scorers table.
I'm also assuming North Scott was assigned the responsibility of staffing someone at the neutral site.
I'm not debating if that's how it should be.....just saying the staffing of the table was no different than other sub-state locations.
 
I'm assuming every team who hosted had their "fans" working the scorers table.
I'm also assuming North Scott was assigned the responsibility of staffing someone at the neutral site.
I'm not debating if that's how it should be.....just saying the staffing of the table was no different than other sub-state locations.

West was the home team in that game so i would assume they would’ve be the host team. Also the scoring table from West/NS game stayed for the CF/Hempstead game later on.

if there’s anything to blame it probably be the clock not being fully synced with the buzzer and the led lights on the backboard.
 
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Tap settings then goto playback speed. It slows the video way down
 
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if there’s anything to blame it probably be the clock not being fully synced with the buzzer and the led lights on the backboard.
Exactly. I can't blame the timekeeper as the clock looks to start as soon as he touches the ball. I also have a hard time putting too much blame on the officials. I am guessing they were looking at the light which turned on when the ball was halfway to the hoop. So from that, it would be safe to assume he got the shot off in time, which he did not according to the clock. If I was in their shoes I would assume they would be synced up which they clearly were not. I am not a ref though so maybe that is not proper protocol.
 
West was the home team in that game so i would assume they would’ve be the host team. Also the scoring table from West/NS game stayed for the CF/Hempstead game later on.

if there’s anything to blame it probably be the clock not being fully synced with the buzzer and the led lights on the backboard.
Incorrect, NS was designated the home team at the neutral site.
 
Exactly. I can't blame the timekeeper as the clock looks to start as soon as he touches the ball. I also have a hard time putting too much blame on the officials. I am guessing they were looking at the light which turned on when the ball was halfway to the hoop. So from that, it would be safe to assume he got the shot off in time, which he did not according to the clock. If I was in their shoes I would assume they would be synced up which they clearly were not. I am not a ref though so maybe that is not proper protocol.
I think according to the rule book, the refs go by the buzzer and instead of the clock.

The Cell Center should be a good venue but it’s so technically outdated i feel like whoever schedules the venues for substate gets rid of the double-header until they can get their problems straight. And it’s not just the clock/buzzer problem, there’s no way to tell how many points or fouls a player has. They used the advertising boards as the scoreboard during the Wells Fargo Advisors Shootout a year ago, i don’t see why they couldn’t have done that.
 
It’s unfortunate that this happened and there is no way to overturn it. The officials have to know that shot is IMPOSSIBLE to get that shot off in time.

It's NOT IMPOSSIBLE>>>>>

The rules are quite clear. It's impossible to get a shot off with .3 seconds or less. With .3 or less, the ball has to be tapped for it to count. Over .3 seconds, it's possible to possess and shoot the ball and have the basket count if it in fact goes in. Referees judgement. The video shows the ball has clearly left his hand when the red light surrounding the backboard lights up. That's what the official is looking at along with the audible horn that should be synchronized with the red light on the backboard.

Now....whether the clock started on time is a whole other issue. I wasn't there so I can't offer an opinion. I can tell you this. As an official, if there is a situation that is 100% verifiably wrong, the officials can get together and change it. This situation appears that there is a potential discrepancy of .2 or .3 seconds being argued. I can tell you that this official, or 99% of the officials out there are not going to overturn something that razor thin. It sound like the clock keeper is a stand up person and is un-justly taking some heat. If she was watching for the referees "Chop" to start the time and then started the clock, there can be no issue. You must realize that there is a slight delay/lag time when recognizing the chop and then your brain telling your finger to start the clock. I'm betting there was that same delay/lag time when the Lancers called time out with over 1 second left but by the time the official blew the whistle and extended his palm straight up to stop the clock, the timer recognized this and had their brain tell their finger to stop the clock. That left the .6 seconds where all the drama started.
 
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If the player was facing the basket, yes, he could catch and shoot in as little as .3 seconds. But as you can see in the replay, that was not the case. He had to jump and catch it at the top of his jump, and his back is to the basket. Meanwhile, he has to come down, turn, and heave it from 28 feet. Given all of that having to take place, no, it is absolutely impossible to get that off in time. Had that clock started when the ball first touched his hands, time would have expired as he was landing with the ball. I watched the replay over and over again, and timed it myself using a stopwatch, and I was regularly getting about .8 seconds from the time he first touched the ball, until he shot it.

Now as to how much time should’ve been left after West’s final made basket, that’s another argument altogether, and a fair one at that. In any case, this is really on the IAHSAA for allowing this situation to begin with. It’s one thing for North Scott staff to do time keeping in regular season games. I’m sure that’s common everywhere. But by the Substate final, they need to ensure a more impartial timekeeper. North Scott fans would’ve been every bit as pissed had the situation been reversed.
 
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Throughout the game, the score table made numerous mistakes, including forgetting to give West High points in a timely manner and not starting the game clock on time.
 
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