Iowa has always had trouble attracting interest and attention to the state duals. That is no more apparent than the need to have the IHSAA threaten schools with sanctions for not giving it their best. It just doesn't seem to be very important, other than for the participating schools - and even they are often just happy to be there and get their trophy. Although Iowa has a great individual tournament I feel it's time the IHSAA makes some changes to give the duals their due importance. The dual team title should be the only recognized state title. Don't keep team scores at the individual tournament - the dual tournament would reflect which team is the overall best team. Thoughts?
State Duals - Important??
- Thread starter Former Iowan
- Start date
Why not recognize both? There's a big difference between winning dual team title and individual tournament title. Look at Iowa vs Penn St. Iowa beat them head to head in a dual, bot PSU would likely win in individual tournament action. They just need to move it to another time as some care more about individual titles. Don't know how to do it, but it's hard because of sectionals and districts and even conference tournaments. Maybe run it right before conference tournaments or the weekend after individual state. It's also hard because it's on Wednesday when a lot of people are already taking off Thursday and Friday. Put it on the weekend and you'll have better attendance and participation. Heck do it on Sunday after individual state.
Someone had an interesting idea earlier that they should hold it within the first few weeks of January.
Kind of a build up that way. Teams are still fresh for the most part. You don't get the gripers who whine about having to deal with the duals and then the individual tourney.
Kind of a build up that way. Teams are still fresh for the most part. You don't get the gripers who whine about having to deal with the duals and then the individual tourney.
What an embarrassing episode for the IHSAA! They did not listen to feedback from the prior year, then used threats and then hosted an event that didn't bring the best competition forward for a State Championship.
There are many ways to solve it, but the interest has to be there. I don't see how this episode matches up to their mission and purpose (although it can be argued that this is generally within Mission, it cannot align with their Purpose:
IOWA HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION MISSION
"The Iowa High School Athletic Association serves its member schools and students by providing leadership and support for
education based interscholastic athletics that enrich the educational experience of the student athlete."
IOWA HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION PURPOSE
To promote, develop, direct, protect, and regulate amateur interscholastic athletic relationships between member schools and to stimulate fair play, friendly rivalry, and good sportsmanship among contestants, schools,
and communities throughout the state.
As to the mission, I think that the IHSAA did lead (threatening and cajoling are part of leadership, not the best part) and support (why they made it clear that sanctions would be applied, so how much more support could they offer?)
As to the purpose, Fair Play is not promoted when the team composition from the regular season is dramatically changed; Friendly Rivalry is not promoted when schools field dramatically different teams; and good sportsmanship is not on display, as evidenced by the contestants, schools and communities inconsistent approach.
On the other hand, as to wrestlers and coaches who did not take the mat or field their starting lineups in the State Duals (including ADs who support their actions), they knew the rules going into the season and they did not honor the obligations set forth within the context of those rules.
There are many ways to solve it, but the interest has to be there. I don't see how this episode matches up to their mission and purpose (although it can be argued that this is generally within Mission, it cannot align with their Purpose:
IOWA HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION MISSION
"The Iowa High School Athletic Association serves its member schools and students by providing leadership and support for
education based interscholastic athletics that enrich the educational experience of the student athlete."
IOWA HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION PURPOSE
To promote, develop, direct, protect, and regulate amateur interscholastic athletic relationships between member schools and to stimulate fair play, friendly rivalry, and good sportsmanship among contestants, schools,
and communities throughout the state.
As to the mission, I think that the IHSAA did lead (threatening and cajoling are part of leadership, not the best part) and support (why they made it clear that sanctions would be applied, so how much more support could they offer?)
As to the purpose, Fair Play is not promoted when the team composition from the regular season is dramatically changed; Friendly Rivalry is not promoted when schools field dramatically different teams; and good sportsmanship is not on display, as evidenced by the contestants, schools and communities inconsistent approach.
On the other hand, as to wrestlers and coaches who did not take the mat or field their starting lineups in the State Duals (including ADs who support their actions), they knew the rules going into the season and they did not honor the obligations set forth within the context of those rules.
Not sure what you are talking about loco.
The matches that I watched were complete varsity rosters.
SE Polk and Bettendorf; West Delaware and Assumption fought till the end with their "A" team on the mat.
I really thought it was a great night of wrestling! WD/Assumption went down to the final match!
What else could you ask for???
The matches that I watched were complete varsity rosters.
SE Polk and Bettendorf; West Delaware and Assumption fought till the end with their "A" team on the mat.
I really thought it was a great night of wrestling! WD/Assumption went down to the final match!
What else could you ask for???
start individual tourney on wed and hold state duals on sat also why didnt the state have dual score updates so everyone in arena could see...we were always wondering what scores each mat team scores were...on wed night they did a better job on updates....had scores posted .....
This post was edited on 2/14 8:26 AM by booieg
This post was edited on 2/14 8:26 AM by booieg
Here's the deal. There's no problem with team resting their varsity wrestlers if the outcome of the dual is already decided to either save them for the next dual or for the individual state tournament. With the current schedule kids wrestling in the duals on Wednesday might be wrestling the same kid in either the first round or second round of individual state. Also, if dual is already decided it gives another wrestler a shot at gaining some good experience there. The state has no one to blame but themselves when situations like this happen because of the schedule the way it is. If they don't want this to happen then have a different set up. As far as I know Mediapolis, Assumption and West Delaware all wrestled their varsity wrestlers when the outcome of the meet was still in question. Only difference was that some kids were moved around to try to win the dual.
Alright since everyone is apparently down watching the tournament, I'll go ahead and make up an answer to my own question.
The reason I asked when they released the sectional assignments was to expand on the idea of holding the State duals in January. So how would that work, one might ask?
Well, have separate tournaments of course. Teams participate in dual tournaments almost every weekend. Start about the second week in January with regional duals and assign sites to host (make them neutral if people will complain, which they probably will).......or just use the same ones for sectionals, either or.......
1A- Top 16 teams advance out of 118 teams
2A- Top 16 teams advance out of 96 teams
3A- Top 8 teams advance out of 64 teams
Then hold the state duals over a 2-day period (Friday-Saturday) on the following week. To make things even, the first round for 1A and 2A would be an elimination round. From there you have your traditional state dual format and each team wrestles for up to 8th place.
Having it right in the middle of the season...well technically not right in the middle because if say they would've had the duals on January 18-19, sectionals would only be 2 weeks away for 1A and 2A. But obviously we can't have the duals on the 25th and 26th because that'd be too close to state duals and coaches would complain about risking injury so close to the beginning of the traditional tournament......
The reason I asked when they released the sectional assignments was to expand on the idea of holding the State duals in January. So how would that work, one might ask?
Well, have separate tournaments of course. Teams participate in dual tournaments almost every weekend. Start about the second week in January with regional duals and assign sites to host (make them neutral if people will complain, which they probably will).......or just use the same ones for sectionals, either or.......
1A- Top 16 teams advance out of 118 teams
2A- Top 16 teams advance out of 96 teams
3A- Top 8 teams advance out of 64 teams
Then hold the state duals over a 2-day period (Friday-Saturday) on the following week. To make things even, the first round for 1A and 2A would be an elimination round. From there you have your traditional state dual format and each team wrestles for up to 8th place.
Having it right in the middle of the season...well technically not right in the middle because if say they would've had the duals on January 18-19, sectionals would only be 2 weeks away for 1A and 2A. But obviously we can't have the duals on the 25th and 26th because that'd be too close to state duals and coaches would complain about risking injury so close to the beginning of the traditional tournament......
I don't have any hate, BKDevil. Are you out of argument and need to hurl invective?
Several Class 3A dual teams did NOT send to the mat the wrestlers that earned them their berth in the State Duals.
The proximate cause was the misalignment of IHSAA policies, rules without teeth, team goals and individual aspirations.
It is just a sport. The opportunity to represent their school should weigh heavily into the consideration of individual wrestlers and their coaches.
Several Class 3A dual teams did NOT send to the mat the wrestlers that earned them their berth in the State Duals.
The proximate cause was the misalignment of IHSAA policies, rules without teeth, team goals and individual aspirations.
It is just a sport. The opportunity to represent their school should weigh heavily into the consideration of individual wrestlers and their coaches.
I'll throw my 2 cents worth in. Track is similar to wrestling in this way, except track does not currenlty have a true-team meet, which would be pretty cool since it would reflect a complete team effort with the best lineup coaches could put together knowing their competition, similar to wrestling duals.
In my opinion, the best way to have both would be to have an individual, unscored meet first followed by the team scored meet. The reason is, team dynamics change for both sports from early season to the end of the season. Also consider conditioning, academic eligibility and even the possibility of the transfer rule kicking in and having those kids available at the end of the season when needed the most. Having the team championship too early wouldn't reflect the quality of the team at it's peak. Having the individual championship earlier and before the team championship would give those that are ready, and probably already proven to be better, their chance to shine as an individual. Coaches wouldn't even have to enter their whole team. Maybe some criterion for wrestling or performance standard/list for track to qualify.
I honestly don't know if you would see more interest in the scored dual championship or the scored true team track meet other than those directly involved but I think this is the best order for the compeititon if they are both going to exist. Tradition is hard to change. Wrestling and Track have amazing crowds at their traditional championships, finish their seasons on that high note from the spectators viewpoint and I don't think that is going to change any time soon especially if it means extending the season another week. I think that's why the IHSAA put the duals before the traditional. I hope they work it out. I like the idea of recoginzing programs that get high numbers of students involved rather than the duals that I have attended where some schools can't even fill out half a lineup. Travel 2 hours for a 40 minute match. Then again,most track meets are too long.
This post was edited on 2/16 9:11 PM by On Wings of Eagles
In my opinion, the best way to have both would be to have an individual, unscored meet first followed by the team scored meet. The reason is, team dynamics change for both sports from early season to the end of the season. Also consider conditioning, academic eligibility and even the possibility of the transfer rule kicking in and having those kids available at the end of the season when needed the most. Having the team championship too early wouldn't reflect the quality of the team at it's peak. Having the individual championship earlier and before the team championship would give those that are ready, and probably already proven to be better, their chance to shine as an individual. Coaches wouldn't even have to enter their whole team. Maybe some criterion for wrestling or performance standard/list for track to qualify.
I honestly don't know if you would see more interest in the scored dual championship or the scored true team track meet other than those directly involved but I think this is the best order for the compeititon if they are both going to exist. Tradition is hard to change. Wrestling and Track have amazing crowds at their traditional championships, finish their seasons on that high note from the spectators viewpoint and I don't think that is going to change any time soon especially if it means extending the season another week. I think that's why the IHSAA put the duals before the traditional. I hope they work it out. I like the idea of recoginzing programs that get high numbers of students involved rather than the duals that I have attended where some schools can't even fill out half a lineup. Travel 2 hours for a 40 minute match. Then again,most track meets are too long.
This post was edited on 2/16 9:11 PM by On Wings of Eagles
With all due respect Mr Loco, arguing about something that you cannot control is useless.
My opinion of the duals apparently is vastly different than yours. I loved it and thought the teams put out a great product when they needed to. You want to change it all.
Realistically, there was only two or three teams in 3A that even had a prayer of winning the team duals: SEPolk, Bettendorf and perhaps, Waverly-Shell Rock. So, should the team duals really take priority over the individuals? Whats wrong with resting a qualifyer in a dual when your team is up or down by 20 team points and you have no chance of making a difference? Whats wrong with giving a senior sub a chance in front of a big crowd during a consolation match?
Did any of those decisions effect the outcome of ANY of the matches? I would say not in the meaningful matchups.
Just looking at Bettendorf. They sent out their regular lineup in two of their three duals. The other dual, which they won 51-13, they inserted subs into three weights. They were absolutely giving full effort to win.
My opinion of the duals apparently is vastly different than yours. I loved it and thought the teams put out a great product when they needed to. You want to change it all.
Realistically, there was only two or three teams in 3A that even had a prayer of winning the team duals: SEPolk, Bettendorf and perhaps, Waverly-Shell Rock. So, should the team duals really take priority over the individuals? Whats wrong with resting a qualifyer in a dual when your team is up or down by 20 team points and you have no chance of making a difference? Whats wrong with giving a senior sub a chance in front of a big crowd during a consolation match?
Did any of those decisions effect the outcome of ANY of the matches? I would say not in the meaningful matchups.
Just looking at Bettendorf. They sent out their regular lineup in two of their three duals. The other dual, which they won 51-13, they inserted subs into three weights. They were absolutely giving full effort to win.
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