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State Dual Match Up's

Dec 2, 2011
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Okay, so i just noticed WSR vs SEP 1st round. #1Clark vs #3Devos...
Does this match happen? It would be no question if State Duals were AFTER State Trid. But i would hate to pay to watch state duals and not get my money worth.
i dont mean to just pick this match out. Looks like there is ALOT of possible big match ups. Seems like there are a lot of maybes for state duals
 
Few i see are
Clark vs Devos
Northup vs Larson
Kothe vs Wempen
Stroker vs Laux
Ryan vs Wakefield
Bubba vs Gambrall
Meyer vs Vance
Smith vs Phillps
Millkus vs shaw if shaw weighs in at 220
I was only looking fast at some of the 3A matches... But kinda curious considering most these guys are after the Podium on Sat and not looking to risk injury...
Mind boggled i am.
 
I would not expect any of those matchups to take place. I believe you'll see a JV dual tournament, except for the wieghts where either school has a non qualifier.
In my opinion it would be a coaching error to wrestle your state qualifiers the day before the tourney starts. There are not only injury concerns, but weight and the fatigue factor.
I expect most coaches will be sending a message to the IHSAA that they'd better check with the coaches and ADs next time you decide to change the schedule.
 
This is a shame - if that is the mentality of the coaches then why have a dual tournament? I am willing to bet that is not the mentality of all of the highly ranked teams who have many wrestlers who have qualified for the inidividual tourney. Some teams will want to give their best to win two state titles (both of which equate to highest number of TEAM points).
 
The ultimate in non-violent protest!
This is great. Jason Christiansen, you are the best; would love to see you guys make a clean sweep this weekend, but I wouldn't trade a third-place trophy at the REAL State tournament for a Duals championship. And kudos to Coach Knight and to the head coach at E-B as well. Stand by your convictions, stand by your plan, and set the example that's going to send a message to Mr. Beste. A message that says that this is a silly idea, a bad idea, and an idea nobody wants. We've gotten REAL State back to three-days -- the way it was intended to be -- now send duals back to CR, where they should be.
This post was edited on 2/14 10:05 PM by dadthencoach
 
I am not sure that I favor one way or another (two different weeks) but it is what it is this year and I tend to agree with I.C. West coach who stated that he didn't think wrestling three matches Wed, one match Thursday, two matches on Friday and one on Saturday is a big deal. Now I know if a wrestler were to lose they would not wrestle the above schedule but again, these kids are in shape and many have wrestled five or six matches in one day at least once or twice during the season. Still believe that each school should put their best wrestlers out there at both events to attenpt to win two State team titles.
 
Originally posted by dadthencoach:
The ultimate in non-violent protest!
This is great. Jason Christiansen, you are the best; would love to see you guys make a clean sweep this weekend, but I wouldn't trade a third-place trophy at the REAL State tournament for a Duals championship. And kudos to Coach Knight and to the head coach at E-B as well. Stand by your convictions, stand by your plan, and set the example that's going to send a message to Mr. Beste. A message that says that this is a silly idea, a bad idea, and an idea nobody wants. We've gotten REAL State back to three-days -- the way it was intended to be -- now send duals back to CR, where they should be.
This post was edited on 2/14 10:05 PM by dadthencoach

Do you really believe what you are saying????

The only thing I think that this will tell any IHSAA person is that the top coaches of some of the best programs aren't willing to make an attempt at something new. I would also be willing to think that the 3 day tournament you think is gonna stick around will go back to 4 once the State Duals is dropped altogether. There are better ways to get your point across and if you are truly a good coach you would know when and where to put any stud or kid to prevent all the things all of you are claiming may happen with out even giving it a chance.

Our neighbors to the north have been doing it for years and I am yet to hear of Apple Valley having a ton of problems. I would also like to add that most of the studs on some of these teams wrestle at FARGO, oh yeah they will wrestle well over 8 matches in a much tighter time schedule!
This post was edited on 2/15 12:21 AM by oldmcwrestler
 
A: Yes I do believe it.
B: Jason's team is ranked No. 1 for a reason and his opinion carries a lot of weight
C: I think Beste already played has hand about the three-day tournament about by stating the concerns about missed school time because of the four-day format. He can't turn back from that.

It's a dumb idea, and hopefully everyone -- or at least as many schools as possible -- will turn this into a JV festival and expose it for the joke of an idea it was.
 
Indiana dropped the concept and it flourished in Minn. In Minn do they keep a team score for the individual tournament? If you want to compare you need to make it apples to apples not apples to oranges.
 
How do you tink the kids on the state dual teams that did not qualify for state feel about a coach sending out JV kids for the dual meet. For those that did not qualify for indidivudal state, this is their chance to be on a State Championship team and I get the feeling some coaches aren't worried about those non-qualifiers. Those non-qualifiers have worked their butts off all year and probably for many years. A good example of this is Denver-Tripoli who I belive has a past state champion who did not qualify this year but he is still wrestling in the dual tourney (and they have a chance of winning the dual tourney). I am not sure if D-T coach will wrestle all of his kids today or if he will substitute some kids to save others for the rest of the week. But lets just hypothetically say that he substitutes some wrestlers - is that fair to the one wrestler mentioned above?
 
Look, boys and girls, this is what it comes down to:

1 - Mr. Beste was getting heat on both ends. School administrators were tired of the four-day State tournament. Coaches, wrestlers, managers, cheerleaders and student fans, gone for four days, when everyone knew they didn't have to be. On the other side, Mr. Beste was getting heat from the DSM Convention and Visitors Bureau that he had better NOT drop that fourth day, which would lose them a quarter of the biggest sports cash cow they annually get. What to do, what to do.
2 - Cedar Rapids' plan to remodel the U.S. Cellular Center was Mr. Beste's escape hatch. At least for a year, a different site had to be found. So, Mr. Beste could move State Duals to Des Moines and at the same time try the "Grand Experiment" of moving them from their over 25-year traditional setting the week after REAL State to the following Saturday. Didn't exactly back the stands, but still a nice event. Last year, Mr. Beste announced that a "committee of coaches and administrators" had voted to make the change to this year's schedule and it was full-speed ahead.
3 - But Mr. Beste made a couple of gross miscalculations. First, He did not expect the backlash in the media and from coaches across the State (and we're talking big-name coaches) who have blasted this decision from Day One. Second, since no one has stepped up say "Yeah, I was on the committee," it appears more and more that this was a decision that Mr. Beste and/or the IHSAA administration made on their own, think no one would question it. Oops.
4 - Now the storm has hit Des Moines. The head coach of the No. 1 3A school in the State has announced to the media that none of his 11 traditional State qualifiers will even weigh in today. He will send his three non-qualifiers to the mat, along with 11 JV kids. And a lot of other coaches may do the same thing. It's a form a protest perhaps, but it is also something else. What if you wrestled straight up, trying for the Duals/REAL sweep? What if one of you studs got hurt and you got neither? Would that be worth it? No. And if you ask the coaches across the state, almost to a man, they will tell you they don't like the new system.

So here you have it: A new plan on the verge of failing. An organization bent on a new course of action no one wants to take and a civic group breathing down this organization's neck saying "you'd better not cost us any money."

Then, just for fun, Mr. Beste crossed that rubicon when he publicly stated that moving the REAL tournament back to three days was done for academic reasons.

So, one of four things will happen after this week:
1 - Today will be a disaster but remain unchanged, qualifying schools will continue to make it a JV festival and it will die in a few years.
2 - Today will be such a disaster, and the outcry so great that it will return to Cedar Rapids next year.
3 - A compromise will move duals to January or something.
4 - Duals will just be dropped altogether.

It will be an interesting week.
 
Good analysis. I wouldn't be willing to risk the traditional state tournament for the state duals either. How any person involved in wrestling can't see the problems associated with wrestling 3 state level matches the day before the real tournament begins is really surprising. Perhaps the IHSAA will listen to the coaches next time they try to force a decision on them.
 
Correct me if I am wrong...but the wrestlers that compete in the duals and individual tournament would not have any weight allowance going into Thursday. (Understandable considering all competitors would get the allowance) If so, that is the difference between this set up and "Fargo"...this is 2 separate tourney's whereas Fargo is not...a distinct disadvantage to the wrestler who competes in both.
 
Until the format is changed, I think the schools need to man up and put their best teams out there. Like someone said earlier, it isn't fair to everyone on the team, starters and non-starters, to not to. I agree it should be changed but the coaches ego shouldn't override the kids chances of being state champions, there are other avenues of protest. Injuries are part of the game! I am glad to see that Assumption didn't puss out and so far Bett looks like they are sending most of their top wrestlers out there.
 
Everybody gets a 1 pound tomorrow FYI. Knight from Clinton brings up an awesome point, if you make finals, you wrestle till 9ish and then have to be up at 7am to make weight again. Even with a 1lb allowance, not a lot of time to rest.
 
Need to give bigger weight allowances for the state dual tourney, so that issue is taken out.

I could see some state qualifiers wrestling some matches and not others.

I would put Cory Clark in against alot of guys, but don't think I'd wrestle him against Eric Devos. (Matchups like that, I'd avoid as a coach)
 
Missing those 4 days of high school is definitely a huge difference in the development of kids in their learning.
flush.gif


I'm from Osage, no one is in the town during state wrestling. Its a tradition that has been going on for 50 years and I'm sure its the same in a lot of other wrestling communities. Go back to the 4 day tournament and duals a week after. I struggled at cutting weight. After the state tournament my senior year I probably gained 15 lbs and cut it back off that week for state duals. I didn't die. Go back to the way it was.
 
"I agree it should be changed but the coaches ego shouldn't override the kids chances of being state champions,"

I agree completely. That is why none of the state qualifiers should wrestle 3 matches the day before the state tourney starts. Why would a coach intentionally put your wrestler at a disadvantage? Just for a chance to win a dual title and a team title? You do what gives your kids the best chance to win the individual title. Take Clark from SEP, would you want to wrestle your top 3 opponents in one day and then wrestle them again in the next couple days? I'd say take them on when it counts.
 
No you don't really agree because you are only thinking about the elite wrestlers who have a chance to win state and not all of the kids on the team who worked hard all year.

Why is it necessarily a disadvantage? Could be a huge advantage for Cory Clark if he picks up a glitch from Hathaway or Devos in the State Duals that he uses in the next three days.

Do you think the LinnMar and SEP coaches allowed the kids to have a say in their decision? I am glad Bett and ICW are going for the state Dual championship and am looking forward to seeing the results.
 
You guys arguing about the kids on the team who didnt qualify getting cheated out of a chance at a team title are reaching. Wrestling is 1st and foremost an individual sport. You dont hear little kids at AAU state saying to their friends that they cant wait for highschool so they can be on a state dual team champion team. Now if you said the football team was gonna hold their starters out of the conference title game so they are fresh for the 1st round of playoffs or something like that where the kids could have had a conference title with very little hope of a state title I can understand the argument there. Yeah some of these programs like Bosco and Bett and ICW who have such rich traditions as teams take the state duals a little more seriously but for the most part these kids want nothing more than that poduium on saturday night.
 
Originally posted by dadthencoach:
Look, boys and girls, this is what it comes down to:

1 - Mr. Beste was getting heat on both ends. School administrators were tired of the four-day State tournament. Coaches, wrestlers, managers, cheerleaders and student fans, gone for four days, when everyone knew they didn't have to be. On the other side, Mr. Beste was getting heat from the DSM Convention and Visitors Bureau that he had better NOT drop that fourth day, which would lose them a quarter of the biggest sports cash cow they annually get. What to do, what to do.
2 - Cedar Rapids' plan to remodel the U.S. Cellular Center was Mr. Beste's escape hatch. At least for a year, a different site had to be found. So, Mr. Beste could move State Duals to Des Moines and at the same time try the "Grand Experiment" of moving them from their over 25-year traditional setting the week after REAL State to the following Saturday. Didn't exactly back the stands, but still a nice event. Last year, Mr. Beste announced that a "committee of coaches and administrators" had voted to make the change to this year's schedule and it was full-speed ahead.
3 - But Mr. Beste made a couple of gross miscalculations. First, He did not expect the backlash in the media and from coaches across the State (and we're talking big-name coaches) who have blasted this decision from Day One. Second, since no one has stepped up say "Yeah, I was on the committee," it appears more and more that this was a decision that Mr. Beste and/or the IHSAA administration made on their own, think no one would question it. Oops.
4 - Now the storm has hit Des Moines. The head coach of the No. 1 3A school in the State has announced to the media that none of his 11 traditional State qualifiers will even weigh in today. He will send his three non-qualifiers to the mat, along with 11 JV kids. And a lot of other coaches may do the same thing. It's a form a protest perhaps, but it is also something else. What if you wrestled straight up, trying for the Duals/REAL sweep? What if one of you studs got hurt and you got neither? Would that be worth it? No. And if you ask the coaches across the state, almost to a man, they will tell you they don't like the new system.

So here you have it: A new plan on the verge of failing. An organization bent on a new course of action no one wants to take and a civic group breathing down this organization's neck saying "you'd better not cost us any money."

Then, just for fun, Mr. Beste crossed that rubicon when he publicly stated that moving the REAL tournament back to three days was done for academic reasons.

So, one of four things will happen after this week:
1 - Today will be a disaster but remain unchanged, qualifying schools will continue to make it a JV festival and it will die in a few years.
2 - Today will be such a disaster, and the outcry so great that it will return to Cedar Rapids next year.
3 - A compromise will move duals to January or something.
4 - Duals will just be dropped altogether.

It will be an interesting week.

Great post. The IHSAA cannot get out of their own way.

Wrestlers to wrestle up to three matches in one day prior to wrestling for individual titles against other opponents that did not have to do anything but rest and prepare? I cannot believe the IHSAA did this. Are they that blind to see the train wrecks that would take place for this change? But again, with the track record lately of IHSAA decisions does it really surprise anyone?

Does not surprise me. It is amusing how they do what they do in defiance of common sense it seems. But -- it is always about the kids isn't it IHSAA? Yes. Always about the kids. The answer if likely found as it is in most head scratching decisions made by the IHSAA. Follow the money. Wonder how much additional may have been kicked into the kitty by hosting venue and visitors bureau to hold both back to back in the same week?

So there is the possibility there was no committee? Possibility there was no vote? Probably in truth it was not what most would define as a committee. Probably a coach and an administrator on speed dial who were yes man. Committee of three. So technically they did not misspeak. It was a committee. But not one like any of us would characterize as one. Would not surprise me in the least.

Heard that a wrestler in 1A broke his hand today in the duals that was to also wrestle in what you call the REAL tournament. How absolutely sad.

SEP coach did it right. IHSAA really scr***d the pooch -- once again.
This post was edited on 2/15 3:45 PM by NoJustice
 
From the DSM Register article:

"The dual tournament pulled in an average attendance of 4,000 for the quarterfinals and 2,200 for the finals during its last five years in Cedar Rapids. But those numbers paled in comparison to the average of 78,000 that flooded through the gates for the individual tournament in Iowa’s capital city.

IHSAA officials, needing at least a one-year home for the dual tournament, looked to solve another problem that concerned school administrators ? classroom time lost by wrestlers and students during the individual tournament."

As I said. Follow the money. Yet right on cue, the IHSAA, as opposed to calling what it really is, gives the SOP comment of how it beneficial to students.

Paragraph 1 is the story behind the story. Paragraph 2 is thinly veiled excuse used to use our young adults as money pumps for the association.

Just a question that I would like answered......who do these guys in Boone answer to? Who are they held accountable by?
 
Here is one more thing to keep in mind about the "Grand Experiment":

- Name another boys' sport that competes out in at the State level to eighth-place. There isn't one. The only reason they're doing this is to make sure people come back for all three rounds. In baseball, you're one-and-done. In basketball, if you get through the first round, you play to fourth (like you used to for State Duals).
There is no better proof that this all about money and keeping the DMCVB (or whatever it's called) happy than the fact that there are three rounds, and you have to pay your way in for it.
 
That's too bad about the N-P wrestler, they would have had a shot at the title Saturday, too. Half of these kids are transfers anyway and couldn't give two craps about team anything. I know when I was wrestling I felt better if I won and the team lost than the other way around. Call me an a-hole, but most of you were the same way.
 
One of their wreslers, a 42-9 state qualifier, broke his hand today. I didn't say "all" I said "most" felt better after winning personally than as a team (if they are being honest with themselves, I don't expect anyone to be honest on a message board). You may be a team-first guy. I do know they exist.
 
You know, I don't like the way the format was set up, but more so I don't like the pouty, "I don't like you, so I'm taking my ball and going home" stance that many coaches took today. As much as we all like to laud the values and lessons that can be learned from wrestling, it is amazing how quickly this goes out the window in this case. I feel it would have been better for the coaches to have said, "guys, we've been served a $h!# sandwich, now get ready to take a bite." I feel the arguments that it's not fair for some vs. others are pretty weak. I've heard since I was about three that, "life's not fair, get over it." I know it's not exactly apples to apples but next year when some of these kids are in college, is it fair that some will stay up until 2 in the morning, four nights in a row studying for finals while others may only have two finals for the entire week? I really feel that some of the coaches made an unfortunate situation worse. If nothing else, they missed one of those ever popular "teachable moments."
 
Congrats to the NP, Dav Ass and the Bettendorf coaches/teams for keeping their integrity and dealing with the same hand that everyone was dealt. Maybe I don't get it but I still don't see what lesson some coaches are teaching the majority of their starting wrestlers who have no hope to win state by catering to the few who actually have a chance to do so. We have become a me, me, me, me, me, prima donna society! I hope it backfires for the teams that rested today. Good Luck to all..!! :)
 
Originally posted by HawkeyeDenny:
Congrats to the NP, Dav Ass and the Bettendorf coaches/teams for keeping their integrity and dealing with the same hand that everyone was dealt. Maybe I don't get it but I still don't see what lesson some coaches are teaching the majority of their starting wrestlers who have no hope to win state by catering to the few who actually have a chance to do so. We have become a me, me, me, me, me, prima donna society! I hope it backfires for the teams that rested today. Good Luck to all..!! :)

Is it "me, me, me" or are they teaching the kids to focus on what's important? State duals just isn't as important as the individual tourney and the way they put the event together this year detracts from the individual tourney. I don't necessarily like it but I get it.
 
Lombardi:
This isn't about being "pouty" as you put it. This is about a coach setting his own program's priority. If the State is going to say "Well, we're going to come up this schedule," you, as a coach have the right and responsibility to decide what is best for your team.
If you think Duals are that important, or that a sweep of the two is that important, then feel free to go for it. But I support the coaches who set their sights on team goal of winning the traditional title, while their wrestlers chase individual titles.
To me, and I think to the vast majority of fans across the state (judging by attendance if nothing else), Duals have always been an afterthought. They're nice and all, but anyway you do them they're a logistical nightmare for coaches. And putting it today might be the most foolish thing the Association has done in decades.
Move them back a week. Move them back to Cedar Rapids. Give all of the participating wrestlers six pounds for duals (so the kids that don't get through Sectionals don't have to suck so much weight for three weeks). Put a strict prohibition on practice during Real State (so the coaches can focus on important stuff).
But give coaches the right to make their own decisions.
 
Like I said, I think the way things were set up this year was poor as well as most appear to feel. However, if a coach truly felt strongly against it, why wouldn't he have just refused to even show up with a team, varsity or JV. He could have had his kids in school and more focussed on the task at hand tomorrow. Also, if coaches were really concerned about injuries, why would they send out their JV to possibly injure someone else's varsity. It goes both ways. Due to this, I feel that sending the JV out and making a mockery of the dual tourney was "pouting" and not something truly based on principle.
 
Originally posted by dadthencoach:
Here is one more thing to keep in mind about the "Grand Experiment":

- Name another boys' sport that competes out in at the State level to eighth-place. There isn't one. The only reason they're doing this is to make sure people come back for all three rounds. In baseball, you're one-and-done. In basketball, if you get through the first round, you play to fourth (like you used to for State Duals).
There is no better proof that this all about money and keeping the DMCVB (or whatever it's called) happy than the fact that there are three rounds, and you have to pay your way in for it.

State Track places 8 people, State tennis doubles places the top four (or 8 total) people. Cross country places more than 8 I believe. That said, I agree that the set up is ridiculous and needs to be changed back. Though I think it's a travesty that the Association has put the athletes in this situation, I think it is just as much a travesty that the Association decided to give more money to Des Moines, and take it away from Cedar Rapids. I am sick of all of the state tournaments having to be taken away from their traditional sites and moved to Des Moines so Des Moines can make all of the revenue off of it, and the boy in Boone don't have to travel as far. These events bring in an influx of people that will certainly boost sales for businesses, which in turn raises sales tax revenues that a city can use. Why should Des Moines get all of this?
 
Nobody should have refused to compete once the finals began!
They knew the rules before they began the qualifying rounds for State Duals. If all these coaches knew they were not going to compete, why couldn't they have said it before?
Give another team a chance who may not have the same BS feelings that kids cannot wrestle four days in a row.
SE Polk Coach should have refused to compete two weeks ago instead of blowing up the tournament when he did.
 
Those coaches that you agree or disagree with? Regardless, it was the association that put everybody in a bad way here. The coaches did not set up this fiasco, the association did. Like most bureuacratic live off the backs of others policy-wonkers, they all to often cannot see the forest through the trees and unintended consequences come a calling.

Either they do not have the foresight to see them coming -- or they do not care. Either way the end result in the same. This is the association's doing because they lit the fuse. Without that taking place none of this is fodder for discussion.
 
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