poor harlan wrestling

[ronsss]

creston destroyed harlan, 65-9, with 10 pins and one technical fall.....why harlan does not get a decent coach is beyond me....i once emailed the athletic director at harlan, and he said the wrestling coach is doing a good job...they must be drinking buddys....harlan is a far shawdow of what they were in the late 60s...
This post was edited on 1/14 3:43 AM by ronsss

 

[dmlawdad]

That's easy. They don't care about it if it is not football or basketball. You need to start raising more complaints.

 

[Konstantine26]

I wouldn't blame the coach on this one at all. Their lack of numbers has been their biggest problem over the past how many years. The coach does a great job with what he has been given, and now their numbers seem to be on the rise. Just saw their middle school up in Carroll this past week, and they had over 30 kids out easy. Double that of any of the other teams there. They are bound to find some talent in that large of a pool. Give them just a few more years. Just wait...

 

[dadthencoach]

What I can't believe is that the AD did not immediately fire the coach when you emailed ronsss. It is beyond me that any responsible school administrator would not take immediate action in a case like this. And there is just one "W" in shadow.

There are cycles in sports sometimes. Sometimes you go through periods of time when programs just go through rough stretches. Sometimes you hit thin talent pools. Most of us are far shadows of what we were in the late '60s. Look at West Waterloo. Look at a lot of formerly great programs. It is less about the coaching than it is about the talent pool in any given year.

It is easy to stand on the sidelines and throw rocks. It's a lot harder to walk in with a positive attitude and offer to help -- or at least be supportive.

 

[Bantam Rooster]

Dadthencoach, "Less about the coaching than it is about the talent pool in any given year"????? Great programs are great because of coaching. Doesn't Harlan make it to the state finals in football about every year? I agree there are losing cycles, but good coaches make it through them and cycles don't last 50 years.

 

[ronsss]

i still stand by my thoughts...wrestling goes in cycles, i agree, but harlan has never been good since the trotter, mcNeil era....the coaches draw the kids out, the one they have does not get the kids to come out,,,mcneil was able to get 5 or 6 deep when he was coach,,the one we have now cannot even get all weights covered.

 

[dadthencoach]

Then you're perfectly within your rights to burn his house down and hang him from a tree in front of his children. And don't for get the AD, since he could have prevented all of this if he'd have just fired the guy when you told him to in that email! After all, this is Iowa!

But seriously, people like you are what's wrong with sports today. You don't like something, so you go negative about it. Then you go nameless on a website and bash a guy who is trying to do what is becoming a tougher and tougher job nowadays. If you want to help, be positive and offer to help. If you want to go negative, at least have the stones to go public and let everyone in the HCCS know who you are what you saying. After all, the accused should be allowed to face his accuser. Or are you actually that sure about your convictions?
This post was edited on 1/18 10:14 PM by dadthencoach

 

[wrestlescottyboy]

I don't know the situation in Harlan, but too many schools put little effort into finding a coach that will produce results. If a coach is not getting kids out but has done the things required to make sure that the youth program is solid, had good communication with their middle school coaches, recruited kids from the school to come out, and has a solid wrestling philosophy, well then I guess there is not a lot more that coach can do. I do know there are some schools where this is the case. However, more often than not schools with poor wrestling programs hire the first guy to walk through the door. Don't you feel bad for those kids who have worked their butt off as a youth wrestler and gone to all these tournaments growing up only to show little improvement in high school? I do, and it isn't their fault that their school district could care less how the wrestling program does. In my opinion the fans who refuse to hold athletic departments and coaches accountable for the success of the wrestling program are the problem with the sport of wrestling today! We stand by and watch as all this effort goes into making football and basketball better, but don't say anything when next to nothing is done to improve the wrestling programs. I don't have a problem with someone emailing an AD about a coach that isn't producing. It probably needs to happen a lot more!

 

[Bantam Rooster]

ScottyBoy, Beautiful!..... Often times wrestling isn't too high on the priority list.

 

[dowjones1]

WHAT IF the football coach retired and the new coach turned the program into a loser. How long would that coach last?

 

[ronsss]

sorry ...some coaches are better than others....mcneil was really great at getting the youth into the program....i was out for wrestling in 6yh grade, and this is where it started...he had a gym full of kids wrestling, and that is why he was 5 and 6 deep at most weights in high shcool.....the kids like him..he was the varsity coach, but was very much into the younger kids too...i don,t have anthing against the kids out now.....scottsboy-great thread
This post was edited on 1/19 4:24 PM by ronsss

 

[se xc1]

5-6 kids deep at each weight???????? Do realize there are 14 weight classes, so you are saying there were 70-84 kids out?? I am not trying to be a jerk here, but I think this is an exaggeration. IMO getting 50 kids out is a hell of an accomplishment during any era.

 

[LincolntwspFarmer]

Originally posted by se xc1:
5-6 kids deep at each weight???????? Do realize there are 14 weight classes, so you are saying there were 70-84 kids out?? I am not trying to be a jerk here, but I think this is an exaggeration. IMO getting 50 kids out is a hell of an accomplishment during any era.

sexy 1 (no doubt you must be sexy with that self-proclaimed name) anyhow, you may or may not know that Harlan had probably one of the first if not the first little kids tournaments in the United States. This year is something like the 45th or 46th or 47th year for this tournament, and although I can't remember the exact numbers of kids out for little kid wrestling back in the 70's or 80's, I do recall that there were well in excess of 80 kids out for wrestling in the youth program. I don't have any idea how many kids now participate in that program currently, but I seem to remember some years when they had well over 100 kids. Obviously those kinds of numbers were great for feeding the middle and high school wrestling program. You also have to realize that a young kid aged 6 to 12 or so, when he gets beat or pinned so many times, it's tough to keep positive as opposed to team play with football, basketball, baseball, soccer, golf or other team sports. It akes a lot of positive coaching to keep a young wrestler feel like he's having fun when he gets pinned.

Enthusiastic youth coaches are always great for getting kids to participate in any sport. I can't remember the young assistant coach that was at Harlan 3 or 4 years ago, but his teaching contract was not renewed along with 10-20 other young tenured teachers back then, due to financial cut-backs. Not sure, but he may have gone to Emmetsburg and I can't remember his name, but he was energetic and the kids loved his youthful enthusiasm. I think that I heard that most from the district felt it was tough to see that young coach get cut because of state funding cutbacks.

No doubt that some coaching situations get stagnant or can tend to go that way if new blood isn't brought in during times like Harlan seems to be experiencing. From what I see in the paper, they have maybe 5 or 6 good wrestlers this year. I don't know why more of the football kids don't go out for wrestling, it seems that most college football coaches tend to like the wrestling experience that football recruits gain from high school wrestling.

Anyhow, I'd guess that more positive support would help the Harlan wrestling program than negative comments. Sometimes it takes more community action and involvement to help boost a program.

It's always easier for fans to join in after a bunch of wins. I imagine that if some of the negative posters on these boards would be a highschool participant in some sport and only have 4 dozen fans show up for a football game, it might have an impact on the kids playing.

Anyhow, we should all get out to all the sports events and band and vocal and plays and show community and school support.

 

[dadthencoach]

Scottyboy:

I agree totally with the first half of your post. I know of a program that five years ago had 30-some kids out, just missed winning Sectionals, won Districts, got six kids to State. This year they had 14 kids, and between, injuries, ineligibilities, and kids quitting they now have about 7 left. There are good numbers in the kids' program, decent in the middle school, but lately kids have been deciding at the high school level that it's too much work, or they're burned out, or whatever. It happens.

What disappoints me is this idea that people think that there is this magical farm that grows Tom Brands clones or something and that all a school has to do is go there and -- again, magically -- their wrestling program will be transformed into another Don Bosco. That isn't how it works.

Running a wrestling program is the toughest coaching job around. You aren't just the high school coach; you are the Pee-Wee through 12th grade coach. You have to know the name of every kid in that group and follow their careers. Yeah, you can delegate responsibility for the lower level stuff, but you better have a presence there.

Then, of course, there are the supportive fans. The parents, whose kids were kiddie tournament champions for 10 years, and want to know why their kid isn't pinning everyone and ranked No. 1 in the State. They want you to go out and find better practice partners and if their kid isn't winning, it's your fault. It doesn't have anything to do the fact that their kid parties like a rock star, is more worried about girls and is really burned out on the sport after having it rammed down their throats by their parents since they were old enough not to need Good Nights at bedtime.

And, of course, there's the fat loud-mouthed know-it-alls; former wrestlers who the sport passed by 50 years ago, but they still think they know it all, and by GOD people are going to listen to us about it. And for all of this, you get paid the whomping sum of about $2,500 a year. Yeah, I really can't believe there aren't lines of those Tom Brands clones lined up around the block waiting to get those jobs.

Two last points: You're right, wrestling isn't a priority to most schools. Frankly, it costs more money than it makes. Football makes money, basketball makes money, and, in most places, baseball and softball make money. With $12,000 mats, $100 singlets and all of the other fun stuff, it costs a buttload of money with very little return. If you don't have great fundraisers or a Sugar Daddy fan or two, your wrestling program is a money pit, but it's impossible to drop.

Finally, as for those emails, let me give you a little clue from someone who knows: most ADs, good ones anyway, read about two lines of those emails, then delete them. Some they keep just to pass around to the coaching staff to laugh at, but most they just delete. Sorry.
This post was edited on 1/19 11:14 PM by dadthencoach

 

[ronsss]

harlans finishes in the state tornament in the late 60s when they were great...there was 2 classes i believe , large and small schools...harlan participated in the large school class-

1966-6th
1967-6th
1968-4th
1969-4th

harlan tore everyone up in southwest iowa, councill bluffs tj also had a good team one year then... harlans coach mcNeil left at harlan and went to ,, i believe, cedar rapids jeffersen, the high school he went too during his youth....and the decline began
This post was edited on 1/20 1:57 AM by ronsss

 

[dadthencoach]

....where Coach McNeil won a couple of more State championships at Jefferson before finally turning the reins over to one his former wrestlers (Dick Briggs) who has coached the team for almost 30 years. And -- to illustrate my point -- Jefferson has struggled over the last 20 years. Once the era of the Ironside brothers ended, Jefferson and Washington both have struggled in Cedar Rapids. A lot of it has to do with the neighborhoods; demographically, they aren't good wrestling communities.

And just so I'm straight on this, I graduated in 1975. I looked at the State tournament program from '75 and according to it, Harlan (wrestling in 3A) got 8 guys to State that year. I can't find my '76 program, but in my '77 it looks like they had 6 (hard to read, had girls' phone numbers written on the 3A) page. So that decline that started in '69 took eight years to drop two wrestlers in State qualifiers.

And ronsss, if it sounds as if I am sarcastically ridiculing you, I am. In my last post, I pointed out how demanding a job being a head wrestling coach is today. Finding people who want to make that kind of commitment for that kind of compensation are hard to find. You seem to think there are stables of them out there. There aren't. Sometimes schools need to take a brave soul who is ready to step through the front door and take on the job, knowing about psycho parents and know-it-all fans. And those coaches need all the support they can get. They need all the help they can get. Instead of sitting back and firing off emails that are going to get deleted, maybe if you actually think you can help, it's guys like this who might appreciate someone walking in the wrestling room door saying, "How can I help?"

There is no stable of ex-All-Americans who are going to come into a small town in western Iowa for the long term and build you what Bill McNeil (a dear friend of mine, by the way) built 45 years ago. And having Harlan develop a reputation for running out coaches who a few over-the-hill fans don't like, is going to make it harder to ever get someone who is willing to stay long term and take the program back to the glory days. of the Johnson administration.

 

[Superbee922]

dadthencoach, you are absolutely spot on with your observations and insights. You speak as someone who has been there (coaching at the HS level), and I respect you for that.

Ronsss, Harlan has had more wrestling success than you are giving them credit for. They won the majority of Hawkeye 8 (now Hawkeye 10) championships throughout the 1970's. Since then they have had some teams with very good dual meet records, and they seem to have a state placewinner or two almost every year.

But I have to think wrestling is a rather tough sell in that community.

 

[dadthencoach]

Super Bee:

One other issue that hasn't been brought up when it comes to HCCS is that this is an era of specialization. Once you get below the 4A (football) level, you don't see that many schools who are strong in both football and wrestling. Solon is a good example, while Lisbon (at the sake of bringing up a sore subject), is somewhat of an exception to that rule. Usually, if you're strong in wrestling, you aren't in football and vice-versa. Some of the best kids I ever coached weren't football players.

Nowadays there are a lot of off-season commitments for kids in given sports, and while the "official" line in high schools is for kids to participate in a huge variety of activities, coaches are very territorial. They latch onto their best athletes and don't like sharing them with other sports. I'm guessing that happens a lot at Harlan, based on their years of football success. And no one is going to argue with Curt Bladt about it.

 

[wrestlescottyboy]

Originally posted by dadthencoach:
Scottyboy:

I agree totally with the first half of your post. I know of a program that five years ago had 30-some kids out, just missed winning Sectionals, won Districts, got six kids to State. This year they had 14 kids, and between, injuries, ineligibilities, and kids quitting they now have about 7 left. There are good numbers in the kids' program, decent in the middle school, but lately kids have been deciding at the high school level that it's too much work, or they're burned out, or whatever. It happens.

What disappoints me is this idea that people think that there is this magical farm that grows Tom Brands clones or something and that all a school has to do is go there and -- again, magically -- their wrestling program will be transformed into another Don Bosco. That isn't how it works.

Running a wrestling program is the toughest coaching job around. You aren't just the high school coach; you are the Pee-Wee through 12th grade coach. You have to know the name of every kid in that group and follow their careers. Yeah, you can delegate responsibility for the lower level stuff, but you better have a presence there.

Then, of course, there are the supportive fans. The parents, whose kids were kiddie tournament champions for 10 years, and want to know why their kid isn't pinning everyone and ranked No. 1 in the State. They want you to go out and find better practice partners and if their kid isn't winning, it's your fault. It doesn't have anything to do the fact that their kid parties like a rock star, is more worried about girls and is really burned out on the sport after having it rammed down their throats by their parents since they were old enough not to need Good Nights at bedtime.

And, of course, there's the fat loud-mouthed know-it-alls; former wrestlers who the sport passed by 50 years ago, but they still think they know it all, and by GOD people are going to listen to us about it. And for all of this, you get paid the whomping sum of about $2,500 a year. Yeah, I really can't believe there aren't lines of those Tom Brands clones lined up around the block waiting to get those jobs.

Two last points: You're right, wrestling isn't a priority to most schools. Frankly, it costs more money than it makes. Football makes money, basketball makes money, and, in most places, baseball and softball make money. With $12,000 mats, $100 singlets and all of the other fun stuff, it costs a buttload of money with very little return. If you don't have great fundraisers or a Sugar Daddy fan or two, your wrestling program is a money pit, but it's impossible to drop.

Finally, as for those emails, let me give you a little clue from someone who knows: most ADs, good ones anyway, read about two lines of those emails, then delete them. Some they keep just to pass around to the coaching staff to laugh at, but most they just delete. Sorry.
This post was edited on 1/19 11:14 PM by dadthencoach

I realize that there are some schools who have great coaches, but don't have the numbers to have a winning team. I'll use Akron Westfield as an example. I really believe they have a great coach who knows what it takes to win and a few years ago they were one of the top teams in the state. Now their number have gone down but they continue to have solid wrestlers with the kids they have. Even the kids who haven't been wrestling very long go out on the mat and show signs that they are learning and know some of the basics. If that coach were to be removed because they have not been one of the top teams anymore, it would be a huge mistake because he is doing a great job with what he has. Not every team can be tough every year and not every school is going to have solid numbers no matter how much you work. However, there are some teams where you can tell that their coach has no coaching philosophy and their kids are not getting better. You watch these teams go to a meet and kids look like they don't have any kind of strategy or knowledge of the very basic skills. Why does the AD not put pressure on these coaches to produce or how do they get through an interview when its obvious that they have no solid plan for success or coaching philosophy? And as far as the emails go, I do believe there is a way to make ADs hear your arguement as long as you are an adult about it. You can't just be calling for a coaches head, but you can express your concerns with how the program is heading. And even if the ADs laugh at it isn't it worth a try or should everyone just allow the program to continue in that direction? If thats the way things should stay then I really don't blame kids for all these transfers that we have had recently. It makes sense that a kid would want to go to a school where they can actually learn something. I think the problem with SOME of these coaches is that it is too easy to blame their losses on not having enough kids out or the program being traditionally bad, and they refuse to acknowledge that they need to make some changes and learn how to be a better coach.
This post was edited on 1/20 11:47 AM by wrestlescottyboy

 

[dadthencoach]

A number of years ago, I coached in another state; somewhere where wrestling was not the priority it is in Iowa. There was a school we competed against a great deal that, normally, had no more than six or seven wrestlers out. But what was funny was that every year, these were six or seven drop-dead studs. Their coach was great, worked hard, but getting kids out for wrestling was like getting them out for kamakazie school. They won their conference championship one year with seven kids -- seven conference champs. The last year I was down there they were state runners-up. That was over a decade ago and the same guy is still head coach and still only getting a little over a half-dozen kids out.

Scotty, you're right; there's a huge difference between teams with poor numbers who have good technique and teams with poor numbers who are totally clueless. The latter probably needs a coaching replacement. The former doesn't.

One of the reasons I've carried the banner on this thread is because I think ronsss is out of line on a couple of respects. One, he sounds as if he's owed a championship team -- akin to those from 45 years ago -- every year, for reasons that pass understanding. He's not. If he's a fan, he's a fan, and he's owed nothing more than the program's thanks for their support; POSITIVE support. Second, I go to at least a round of the State meet every year, and I have seen Harlan kids wrestle. I have not seen poor technique, I have not seen clueless wrestlers. It appears to me that ronsss was more upset about a recent big loss to Creston (a pretty good program) than he was about the abilities of the wrestlers or the CURRENT (it's not 1969, ron) progress of the program.

As for the emails, I've read a lot of those over the years Scotty, and RARELY are they adult. Actually, the rare adult ones are usually in praise instead of complaint. The others usually include statements like: "...tired of watching this crap....", "...what were you thinking when you hired him?...", "...why don't you go the colleges and find seniors coming out to COACH (for $2,500 a year) here?", or (my personal favorite) "...if you don't get off you a** and fire him, I'm going to the school board and get you both fired!..." Yeah, right.

See, the thing is that unless a coach has done something horribly wrong professionally and ethically, it's really pretty hard to fire them for wins and losses. They just went through that in Jesup; about four years ago they tried to fire their head football coach because they kept losing. He ended up suing the district (while still teaching and coaching baseball there), had the State court of Appeals rule that Jesup had to reinstate him (with back pay) as head coach, then had the Supreme Court refuse to hear the school district's appeal. Now the district has to get rid of the current football coach and rehire the guy they've been fighting with in court for four years.

Soooo....ADs and administrators are kind of obligated anymore to support coaches, win or lose. As long as they aren't sleeping with the managers, stealing fund-raising money or passing out drunk in the town square, there isn't much email, petitions or even storming the walls with torches is going to do about coaches who aren't winning.
This post was edited on 1/20 3:47 PM by dadthencoach

 

[ronsss]

coach mcNeil was 100% totally dedicated...he even tried to recruits guys from the study hall....great coach, and i agree with threads here. thanks all

 

[se xc1]

LincolnFarmer,
It said 5-6 kids deep in HIGH SCHOOL. I am well aware of youth programs with big numbers, but thanks. And I don't think I am sexy-I am a 44 year old with a belly, thin hair on top, starting to need glasses. I coach cross country = xc and I do that at St. Edmond = SE, hence SE XC with the space.

 

[wrestlescottyboy]

Originally posted by dadthencoach:
A number of years ago, I coached in another state; somewhere where wrestling was not the priority it is in Iowa. There was a school we competed against a great deal that, normally, had no more than six or seven wrestlers out. But what was funny was that every year, these were six or seven drop-dead studs. Their coach was great, worked hard, but getting kids out for wrestling was like getting them out for kamakazie school. They won their conference championship one year with seven kids -- seven conference champs. The last year I was down there they were state runners-up. That was over a decade ago and the same guy is still head coach and still only getting a little over a half-dozen kids out.

Scotty, you're right; there's a huge difference between teams with poor numbers who have good technique and teams with poor numbers who are totally clueless. The latter probably needs a coaching replacement. The former doesn't.

One of the reasons I've carried the banner on this thread is because I think ronsss is out of line on a couple of respects. One, he sounds as if he's owed a championship team -- akin to those from 45 years ago -- every year, for reasons that pass understanding. He's not. If he's a fan, he's a fan, and he's owed nothing more than the program's thanks for their support; POSITIVE support. Second, I go to at least a round of the State meet every year, and I have seen Harlan kids wrestle. I have not seen poor technique, I have not seen clueless wrestlers. It appears to me that ronsss was more upset about a recent big loss to Creston (a pretty good program) than he was about the abilities of the wrestlers or the CURRENT (it's not 1969, ron) progress of the program.

As for the emails, I've read a lot of those over the years Scotty, and RARELY are they adult. Actually, the rare adult ones are usually in praise instead of complaint. The others usually include statements like: "...tired of watching this crap....", "...what were you thinking when you hired him?...", "...why don't you go the colleges and find seniors coming out to COACH (for $2,500 a year) here?", or (my personal favorite) "...if you don't get off you a** and fire him, I'm going to the school board and get you both fired!..." Yeah, right.

See, the thing is that unless a coach has done something horribly wrong professionally and ethically, it's really pretty hard to fire them for wins and losses. They just went through that in Jesup; about four years ago they tried to fire their head football coach because they kept losing. He ended up suing the district (while still teaching and coaching baseball there), had the State court of Appeals rule that Jesup had to reinstate him (with back pay) as head coach, then had the Supreme Court refuse to hear the school district's appeal. Now the district has to get rid of the current football coach and rehire the guy they've been fighting with in court for four years.

Soooo....ADs and administrators are kind of obligated anymore to support coaches, win or lose. As long as they aren't sleeping with the managers, stealing fund-raising money or passing out drunk in the town square, there isn't much email, petitions or even storming the walls with torches is going to do about coaches who aren't winning.
This post was edited on 1/20 3:47 PM by dadthencoach

dadthencoach, I think that we are pretty much agree on this topic for the most part, and I'm not saying people should be calling for coaches heads to there AD. I guess I just figure by emailing or contacting the AD it could help put some pressure on the coach to make some changes, to be a little more organized, or to further develop their coaching philosophy. Now I have a question for you. Do you think that there is an appropriate way to tell an AD or a coach that there should be some changes or is there really nothing that can be done? ...and I'm not saying anything about Harlan here because I don't know their situation at all, and I haven't made any comments about their coach for that reason.

 

[dadthencoach]

Scotty:

I think it depends on how it's presented. First of all, if you go to the AD before you go to the coach, that's (I'm sorry) just kind of gutless. If you can't start with the coach first, you shouldn't say anything.

Second, you have to approach it in a positive manner. Be polite, positive, ask how things are going and offer to help. But you can't just walk to someone and ask them to change the way they do their job because you disagree with them.

The HUGE thing to remember here is this: The people coaching high school sports are not doing it for the money or the appreciation. You get very little of either in this business. They do it because they love the sport they work in and they love working with kids.

Always remember, coaches are doing a job they were hired for, just like you are. Would you like random people to walk into your place of business and tell you they want you to change the way you're doing your job, because they don't agree with it. Especially if you boss thinks you're doing a good job. Would you want them going to your boss behind your back?

Unless you've coached, unless you've competed and built a program and worked on all of the details, you can't know everything that goes into running a wrestling program. Someone who's coached would know. I don't know Scotty, it's hard to explain. With all due respect, if you have to ask me that question, you probably shouldn't ask the coach that question.

 

[IowaHawkeye1964]

amen

 

[cidhawkeye]

Great discussion, good points all the way around, supportive parents can help any coach build the program, not the wannabes, used to bes or the never weres. Parents that make sure Johhny gets to practice on time, makes sure that if the coach says it, it is so whether Johnny likes it or not, if that means some kids don't wrestle initially then thats ok, the program will build when the word spreads that it is being done correctly. This is from a non traditional wrestling Dad but a strong sports background. I am also on both sides of the spectrum with one son who is 14-1 and another that is 4-14. As far as people walking into your job and telling you how to do it try working in the restaurant/bar industry, everyone is an expert and very few if any have a clue. You take the feedback, keep the best, leave the rest and tell stories about the truly funny ones.