Any class - What team with a great record got the worst playoff draw?
- Thread starter LukeFeddersen
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Well, based on BCMoore's rankings, in 2A, #'s 3, 6, and 8 (Anamosa, Northeast, and Camanche respectively) are all in the same District. #'s 2, 4, and 7 are in the same substate (Cascade, Monticello, and Beckman respectively). So, only 2 of those top 8 can even potentially make it. But, that's the nature of 2A in NE Iowa. Last year all 6 of these teams (top 12 teams I believe) were in the same substate.
There hasn't been a team that should have won a state title, but didn't because their substate was too difficult.
With that, I realize the top 8 most talented teams won't necessarily make it, but very few crappy teams do.
With that, I realize the top 8 most talented teams won't necessarily make it, but very few crappy teams do.
It is sad the way the Boys in Boon draw up their tournament brackets year after year. No imagination or concern about trying to get the perceived best 8 teams to Des Moines in each and every class. They have no clue how to get creative with district and substate groupings as opposed to the Girls Athletic Union which does a great job of this. Case in point..Based on the final rankings for the girls in 1A 7 of the top 8 ranked teams made it to Des Moines. In 2A the top 8 all are making the trip and in 3A 7 of the top 8 are headed to Des Moines. How could this happen you ask....it is called creative districting to try and get the BEST 8 teams to the State Tournament based on rankings. But what do our Boys in Boone do...ohhh..in 2A we put 3 of the top 8 all in the same district and another 3 of the top 8 are all in the same substate.(I am from NW Iowa so I have no personal skin in the game so to speak as these 6 are all in NE and EC Iowa) Surely with a little gerrymandering they could have come up with better groupings so as to having these 6 teams perhaps being in 3 different substates. If the girls can do it so can the boys. Time for the Boone Boys to get off their keisters and join the 21st Century.
Well said brewcrewman1...well said. There are A LOT more very good boys teams in the state so you are going to get some teams that get knocked out, but the Boy's Association could learn a lot from the Girl's Union in how to run a State Tournament and put some more effort into it.
The problem with the IAHSAA is they want what they call a "true state tournament." What I mean by that is they want each section of the state represented down in Des Moines. How in the world is that fair to kids and coaches that work their butts off all off-season and all season long. This is the biggest injustice and disservice that can be done and the IAHSAA won't change. Its beyond ridiculous.
OK Geography Bee Champion 2005 how do you get the top 8 teams to 2A State when 7 of them are east of Des Moines???
And how do you know who the best 8 teams are? Because a ranking said so? Really?? Oh, my bad I forgot rankings are always right...
"There hasn't been a team that should have won a state title, but didn't because their substate was too difficult." - Dew
There will always be a team or teams that won't make it to state. It happens everywhere. This is not just an Iowa thing. Having said that, why not just reseed once everyone gets to substate. Then you have one round with some crazy travel and some of your weaker teams are eliminated. Honestly the 1A and 2A state tourneys should probably have more teams in them, as there are way more teams in the draw. Just my thoughts. Not saying they are gold or valid.
I loathe this tired old argument which seems to rear it's head this time every year. The goal of the state tournament is not to crown the best 8 teams, but the best 1. If you lost in districts or substate you are not that team. Getting to state is not supposed to be a consolation prize. I don't see how it is an injustice when you got beat. It is not the IAHSAA fault you were not as good as another team. I love that quote roundmound posted, so true.
I also love the fact that Iowa boys have a true state tournament. In my mind it is the best way to really find out who that best team is. The reality is teams don't play many schools outside of their area so it is extremely hard to say for certain which teams are the best 8. Is a 6 loss team from one part of the state better than a 1 loss from another? We have no way of knowing for sure until they play. Which is why each part of the state is represented. In the end we have 1 team who we can say was they best in the state for that year. It is a great system that works.
I also love the fact that Iowa boys have a true state tournament. In my mind it is the best way to really find out who that best team is. The reality is teams don't play many schools outside of their area so it is extremely hard to say for certain which teams are the best 8. Is a 6 loss team from one part of the state better than a 1 loss from another? We have no way of knowing for sure until they play. Which is why each part of the state is represented. In the end we have 1 team who we can say was they best in the state for that year. It is a great system that works.
Agreed. There are just going to be some parts of the state, especially in smaller classes, where theres just more talent. Play it out. If you are that good you will make it. I'd rather say I lost by 3 to the state champion in districts then say I made it to state and lost by 40. You should want to play the best teams no matter where you are at.
I agree with you to a point, Sarcastico.
The championship game is always on Friday or Saturday.
We may be seeing the 2 best teams play earlier in a local HS gym. It might be nice for more people to see the match-up.
I think girls union does it better.
Make a reasonable effort to get the best 8 teams to Des Moines & there, if you win 3 in a row, you're champs.
Fewer first round blowouts is a better fan experience too.
IMO, the IHSAA is lazy. They want something simple that takes little effort, at the expense of better competition.
The championship game is always on Friday or Saturday.
We may be seeing the 2 best teams play earlier in a local HS gym. It might be nice for more people to see the match-up.
I think girls union does it better.
Make a reasonable effort to get the best 8 teams to Des Moines & there, if you win 3 in a row, you're champs.
Fewer first round blowouts is a better fan experience too.
IMO, the IHSAA is lazy. They want something simple that takes little effort, at the expense of better competition.
I will concede that the girls union probably puts more effort into moving teams around. That said they do have an advantage with 5 classes making it easier as there are less teams in each division. If Sioux Center were 2A in girls it would be pretty tough to have them, Unity, Western, and Okoboji all split up, so a really good team still wouldn't be making it to state. Either that or you could have 4 teams from the same area making it. Is that really a fair process either? Maybe that area of the state was overrated. Again it is hard to say for certain until you actually play the games.
No system is perfect, you just have to chose one and make the best of it. The boys union has chosen to make sure each area of the state has a chance to be represented at the tournament. I for one agree with that choice. It isn't like we have not had some great state tournament and championship games lately.
I work with a few guys from Nebraska and I like some of the things about their system. They have more classes for one 6 to our 4. Maybe we could go up to 5. Also, instead of 8 substates they have 6 then the next 2 highest power point teams get in. So six substates (NW, SW, NC, SC, NE, and SE) so the entire state is represented then the next two best teams from anywhere.
Unity, Western and Okoboji were split up...and a really good team still didnt make it to state = Treynor....I understand the girls association wants their top 8 seeds to make it to Des Moines..but that brings into question the rankings throughout the season or most importantly after 15 games. Is it better to have teams seperated by 155 miles meet at a substate in the middle or to win your region?? I prefer the boys tournament and seeing teams representing their respective part of the state. If I was a girls coach and I had a fringe top 10 team why would I want to substitute freely and back off pressing lesser teams in fear without lopsided scores and blowout wins I might end up outside the top 8 and have a defending champ moved to your region?
Iowa doesn't need more classes. Heck theres less schools every year. If you are going to split up anything you would split up 1A into a possible A and 1A based on some schools being really small. Kind of like the need for 8 on 8.
Interesting. Do you know how they determine those 2 highest power point teams? Seems like it must lead to a lot of arguing about who those 2 teams should be.
Complicated but basically you get points based on the team you beat or lose to within your division or higher. Broken down into 4 tiers 100%- 75%, 74%-50%, 49%-25%, and below 25% winning %. No deduction for playing down but bonus points for playing up. Of Course NE has far less teams than us so classes are smaller and it's easier to get to state. But this system ensures the top 2 teams will be at state. Teams have lost in substate and have come back to win the state championship. Crazy. I guess all states have different philosophies and its really hard to make it perfect for everyone.
I like their system a whole lot more. I have family over there and have seen how it works every now and then! It's beneficial for those teams who are good but lose in district/substate play but still make it to state. A few years ago, I remember watching a game where Team A was going to state win or lose and Team B had to win to go to state or go home. Team B won the game on a buzzer beater and they both went to state. Can't recall how the State Tourney went, but that's just a scenario I saw happen!
So what you're saying is you want the IAHSAA to put out a weekly ranking that they'll then use to determine seeding for districts?...........................
#Bold move cotton
Nope.
I'd be fine with looking once, on Jan 20 (or 3rd Mon in Jan) to get a general consensus of who the top teams in each class are. (BCMoore, INA/AP polls, maybe sponsor a coach's poll). Try to spread the top 12 teams among the 8 substates, & then fill in the rest with something easy for the IHSAA (like record for games 1-15). Geography is still a factor, just not the only factor.
A #2 team might have to go south or east & avoids playing the #1 team in a district final. A game the whole state would be interested in watching is played on the big stage at the state level instead of in a high school gym in Feb.
Perfect? No. Better? Yes.
So which #1 played a #2 in districts? I must have missed it. In fact I can't thin of too many examples of it happening. I'm sure it has, but it is the exception not the rule. Sure you are going to have some top teams playing each other before state, but that will always be the case. Even with the girls it is unavoidable. As was mentioned earlier Treynor is not going to be at state despite being ranked one of the best 8 teams on bcmoore. I think people spend way to much time complaining about a perceived problem that isn't really that big. I really think that most years the best two teams do meet at state.
But which system has more of the top 8 in Des Moines every year?
I think last year in 2A, A-P and New Hampton were #1 & #2.
This year 2A #3 Cascade #4 Monticello already met. 3A MOC-FV, Heelan, Harlan, SBL all together
Lots of incidents in NW IA small classes where 2-3 of the consensus top teams were in 1 substate.
I'm OK with how it is. I get to see lots of top caliber teams knock each other off within 30 minutes of my house.
But I do think it would be more fair to the kids on good teams that get overshadowed by the local powerhouse year after year.
Let's remember, the rankings are something people argue and complain about all of the time. Are you going to let potential bias rankings determine the seedings for the district/substate tournaments?
I still maintain, no state champion has ever gotten knocked off early in the district/substate play.
I still maintain, no state champion has ever gotten knocked off early in the district/substate play.
I a
I agree with this. No need to bring rankings bias into a mix that people already argue about. Would people complain as much if Substate was just considered part of the state tournament? Each district champion makes it to state. A lot of states do it this way. Win your district and you are in to state.
I agree with this. No need to bring rankings bias into a mix that people already argue about. Would people complain as much if Substate was just considered part of the state tournament? Each district champion makes it to state. A lot of states do it this way. Win your district and you are in to state.
I wouldn't call it lazy. Practical isn't the word, but basically I'm guessing they don't feel the need to seed based on some arbitrary ranking. It's not like the Girls have these amazing games that the Boys don't have at State b/c they have more parity. Last year in 2A the girls had 5 games out of 7 decided by 10 or more points including the Championship decided by a whopping 29 points! But that was #1 vs #3 (according to BC Moore) so that's ok. The boys w/ less "parity" had only 3 games out of 7 decided by 10 or more and the Championship game was decided by 5. But I guess it wasn't a "true" Championship game b/c it was played by the #9 and #10 teams.
What an enjoyable thread!! Last years 2a champ Treynors run to the title featured a substate win by 3 over IKM a 3 point win over Forest City a 4 point OT win over AP and a 5 point win over Ia City after a 11 point 3rd quarter deficit... the top 4 seeds all knocked out before the championship game...nothing like playing your rival split by 74 miles on a court in the middle to earn the trip vs an association deeming who is worthy ie girls and moving seeds based on ratings after 15 games.....go to any District or Substate final this week with 2 rivals ready to face off for a chance to advance......you sure cant be the atmosphere or the memories!! Good luck to all teams left in the race!!
Nah, it wasn't played by Western Christian and some other NW Iowa team like Sioux Center.
RoundMound1 said: ↑
But I guess it wasn't a "true" Championship game b/c it was played by the #9 and #10 teams.
My preference is still for a system that increases the likelihood that it will be played by the year's two best teams.
The chance that an underdog can spoil it makes it exciting, but most tournaments are seeded for a reason.
But I guess it wasn't a "true" Championship game b/c it was played by the #9 and #10 teams.
As I've stated before, and in post 12 of this thread: "The championship is always played on Friday night"
My preference is still for a system that increases the likelihood that it will be played by the year's two best teams.
The chance that an underdog can spoil it makes it exciting, but most tournaments are seeded for a reason.
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