4A Title Game = Will this really include the best teams?

[mtdew_fever]

It is an odd year when the two best teams in the state will playing the 3A title game and not the 4A title game.

I am convinced that CB Lewis Central and CR Xavier definitely the two best teams. It's too bad the boys in Boone wouldn't allow one of them to play up a class in 4A. Either team could win the 3A and 4A titles.

 

[CF_93]

I don’t think there’s anything odd about it. Those two teams would definitely be ranked in the top 4 or 5 in 4A. Both of those teams, and a handful of others in 3A (Heelan, North Scott, Clinton, Western Dubuque, Davenport Assumption) should be playing in 4A, while a handful of others that haven’t been as competitive for decades in 4A should ,in turn, move down to 3A. I think this would also have the added benefit of helping the competitive balance between eastern and central/western Iowa, the former of which has been virtually playing with it’s hands tied behind it’s back due to all the changes the last 20 years (and especially the last 5) by the boys in Boone. First, the 8 & 8 rule in 2000, then the downfall of the conferences in favor of district play in 2012 & 2014 for Central/Western Iowa and Eastern Iowa respectively (thus opening the door for competitive to outstanding teams such as Dubuque Wahlert, Davenport Assumption, and CR Xavier to leave for a smaller pond), and most recently, dropping 4A from 48 to 42 teams this year, taking 4 of those 6 from eastern Iowa, with 3 more of those 4 being very competitive football programs, not to mention CB LC also being another outstanding program to drop to the smaller pond. I think the boys in Boone need to reassess their standards which teams move down, rather than strictly BEDS count. I think how the program has performed over a sample size of 20-25 years should also be considered.

 

[mtdew_fever]

Just to note, Assumption is traditionally very good.....this year, likely just slightly above average 3A school.

I don’t think there’s anything odd about it. Those two teams would definitely be ranked in the top 4 or 5 in 4A. Both of those teams, and a handful of others in 3A (Heelan, North Scott, Clinton, Western Dubuque, Davenport Assumption) should be playing in 4A, while handful of others that haven’t been as competitive for decades in 4A should ,in turn, move down to 3A. I think this would also have the added benefit of helping the competitive balance between eastern and central/western Iowa, the form of which has been virtually playing with it’s hands tied behind it’s back due to all the changes the last 20 years by the boys in Boone. First, the 8 & 8 rule in 2000, then the downfall of the conferences in favor of district play (thus opening the door for competitive to outstanding teams such as Dubuque Wahlert, Davenport Assumption, and CR Xavier to leave for a smaller pond), and most recently, dropping 4A from 48 to 42 teams, taking 4 of those 6 from eastern Iowa, with 3 more of those 4 being very competitive football programs, not to mention CB LC also being another outstanding program to drop to the smaller pond. I think the boys in Boone need to reassess their standards which teams move down, rather than strictly BEDS count. I think how the program has performed over a sample size of 20-25 years should also be considered.

 

[CF_93]

In the interest of fair reporting, Assumption’s brutal strength of schedule should be taken into account, having played Dubuque Wahlert, CR Xavier, Solon, and Clinton the last four weeks. I believe three of those four are ranked, with only Wahlert outside the rankings. Not to mention they played Rock Island Alleman, and I really have no clue how good they are since they are on the Illinois side of the Quad Cities.

 

[PNation]

Wahlert hasn't won a game this year.

 

[screwloose]

Rock Island Alleman is 2-3 this year. For whatever that means or counts, since who knows who else they've payed and how good they are.

 

[stickman80]

It is an odd year when the two best teams in the state will playing the 3A title game and not the 4A title game.

I am convinced that CB Lewis Central and CR Xavier definitely the two best teams. It's too bad the boys in Boone wouldn't allow one of them to play up a class in 4A. Either team could win the 3A and 4A titles.

I agree LC should be playing 4A but I'm not buying into them as 4A champs this year.

They definitely got attention by beating Valley 21-14 in the first round of the playoffs last year BUT.......turned around and lost to Ankeny by 30.... WHO turned and got continual clocked by Dowling.

They are probably better this year and could be a serious 4A contender but hardly a shoe in for champ.

 

[oldtimefootball]

Agree with Stickman80, both good teams and would be ranked with top 10 4a schools but no way they are clearly the top 2 teams.

 

[mtdew_fever]

Yeah, but LC is not doubt better this year. Having the top QB in the state doesn't hurt.

Ankeny Cent is the only 4A that would challenge.

I agree LC should be playing 4A but I'm not buying into them as 4A champs this year.

They definitely got attention by beating Valley 21-14 in the first round of the playoffs last year BUT.......turned around and lost to Ankeny by 30.... WHO turned and got continual clocked by Dowling.

They are probably better this year and could be a serious 4A contender but hardly a shoe in for champ.

 

[KidSilverhair]

Both of those teams, and a handful of others in 3A (Heelan, North Scott, Clinton, Western Dubuque, Davenport Assumption) should be playing in 4A, while a handful of others that haven’t been as competitive for decades in 4A should ,in turn, move down to 3A.

Although "should be playing in 4A" is entirely a matter of opinion and definition. Under the rules as they are now, classes are determined by enrollment, and big schools are 4A, not-as-big schools are 3A, etc, etc. If you go by size, then no, they shouldn't be playing 4A. If you're saying they shouldn't have reduced the size of 4A to 42, then yeah, I get what you're saying. (It's also interesting that you include Clinton in that list ... they weren't all that successful in 4A and the jury is still out for them this year in 3A. Assumption is another interesting selection, as I think they only dressed 24 players for their first couple of games this year, and I don't think they'd be a very competitive 4A team this season.)

The idea, though, of enhancing competition by having successful schools move up while less successful schools move down is intriguing. International soccer does that, of course, through relegation. And now that the IHSAA has that fancy new RPI toy, they actually have a mechanism to determine the least successful programs in each class. How interesting might it be, to have the four semifinalists in 3A move up to 4A for the next season, while the bottom four RPI teams in 4A drop down to 3A?

This idea will never happen, but it's interesting to talk about.

 

[CF_93]

Clinton had some decent teams not all that long ago while they were in the MAC. Granted, more years than not, they were a pretty middle-of-the-road MAC team when they were in that conference. But even this year, they've beaten two 4A teams, and lost to two very good 3A teams (albeit pretty badly). Like I said, I would include them in more of the competitive vein. I think there are a lot more teams that have consistently not been competitive over the last 25 years that would seem to be better suited to 3A. And I don't think I would be up for changing 4, or however many schools between 3A and 4A every year based on just the previous year. I think you need to demonstrate sustained success (or futility) to be moving between classes. I would maybe then revisit the issue every 10 years or so.

As for Assumption, as well as other private schools, they've always been the exception to the BEDS count rule anyway, so it should really be up to that school. Sure, if they don't have the numbers of kids playing football, then don't move up. Private schools should have a little more leeway in what class they play in.

 

[zro pts4u]

Why not just combine the two classes?

 

[screwloose]

Why not just combine the two classes?

Mostly because the discrepancy between the largest school and the would be 96th school would be even worse than it is for 4A. Seven times the number of students, give or take.

 

[zro pts4u]

Mostly because the discrepancy between the largest school and the would be 96th school would be even worse than it is for 4A. Seven times the number of students, give or take.

What 3A school would that be? We all know competitiveness can’t be measured in enrollment

 

[screwloose]

Where did I say that enrollment had to do with talent/competitiveness? To answer your question, Solon's BEDS number was 342, meaning total high school, 9-12, is probably around 450. WDM Valley's BEDS number was over 2200, meaning total high school, 9-12, is probably around 3000.

 

[zro pts4u]

Where did I say that enrollment had to do with talent/competitiveness? To answer your question, Solon's BEDS number was 342, meaning total high school, 9-12, is probably around 450. WDM Valley's BEDS number was over 2200, meaning total high school, 9-12, is probably around 3000.

I know you never said that, infact I implied you already knew that by saying “as we all know”.

What kind of football team does Solon field on a yearly basis? Aren’t they pretty good usually? Of course you don’t want 1a-2a schools going against Valley but if combining classes means more competitive games and less travel time you have to do it. YOU HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT NOW

 

[KidSilverhair]

YOU HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT NOW

lol

I can't wait for those "competitive games" between South Tama and Johnston, or Maquoketa and Bettendorf.

Size/enrollment and quality of your program have very little to do with one another. But how else should you classify teams? Size is pretty much the only option the state has had open to it ... you play other schools who are (generally) similar in size to you, that's the fairest way they could come up with.

Now that there's this little RPI tool the IHSAA has at their disposal, though, might there be another way to group teams by competitive level instead of just size? I dunno, just thinking out loud.

 

[CF_93]

That's why I say let's look at how that team has done over the last 20 years. That should make for a sufficient sample size, assuming that outlook for the next few years isn't looking for a major southward turn in numbers in terms of enrollment and/or players going out for football. There are some teams that are amongst the largest in the state that haven't been competitive in the least over the last 20 years. There may be other extenuating factors involved there, such as demographics, economics, etc. I just think the state needs to take a longer look at the bigger picture.

 

[mtdew_fever]

Nope, still won't work. Being objective doesn't necessarily work.

Just because a 3A school has been very competitive over the past 20 years doesn't mean they can/should play a 4A schedule. If they go up a level, they might be average. If they stay at 3A, then they have a chance to win a state title.

As a disclaimer......Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

That's why I say let's look at how that team has done over the last 20 years. That should make for a sufficient sample size, assuming that outlook for the next few years isn't looking for a major southward turn in numbers in terms of enrollment and/or players going out for football. There are some teams that are amongst the largest in the state that haven't been competitive in the least over the last 20 years. There may be other extenuating factors involved there, such as demographics, economics, etc. I just think the state needs to take a longer look at the bigger picture.

 

[stickman80]

Nope, still won't work. Being objective doesn't necessarily work.

Just because a 3A school has been very competitive over the past 20 years doesn't mean they can/should play a 4A schedule. If they go up a level, they might be average. If they stay at 3A, then they have a chance to win a state title.

As a disclaimer......Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

I see what you did there.

 

[cruhawk]

Clinton had some decent teams not all that long ago while they were in the MAC. Granted, more years than not, they were a pretty middle-of-the-road MAC team when they were in that conference. But even this year, they've beaten two 4A teams, and lost to two very good 3A teams (albeit pretty badly). Like I said, I would include them in more of the competitive vein. I think there are a lot more teams that have consistently not been competitive over the last 25 years that would seem to be better suited to 3A. And I don't think I would be up for changing 4, or however many schools between 3A and 4A every year based on just the previous year. I think you need to demonstrate sustained success (or futility) to be moving between classes. I would maybe then revisit the issue every 10 years or so.

As for Assumption, as well as other private schools, they've always been the exception to the BEDS count rule anyway, so it should really be up to that school. Sure, if they don't have the numbers of kids playing football, then don't move up. Private schools should have a little more leeway in what class they play in.

Private schools have a lot of leeway as to what class they play in. For example, Heelan has been a 3A school enrollment-wise since the early 80's, but played 4A sports until 2006. And when they did switch, it was their choice.

 

[KidSilverhair]

Everybody has the option to play up. All they have to do is inform the state ahead of the release of classification every two years.

Xavier, Wahlert, and Assumption all chose to play 4A back in the MVC/MAC conference days not because they were private, but because their conferences were otherwise all 4A. Since all their games were in-conference, they agreed to play as 4A programs (otherwise the other conference members would have taken a hit on playoff points due to playing a smaller class opponent). When football conference play disappeared and districts came in, there was no incentive or reason for these schools to continue to play out of their enrollment classification.

I have no idea if Heelan’s situation was similar or not. But playing up isn’t just a private-school option; Pella or Lewis Central or anybody who wanted to could volunteer to compete in 4A. The question is, why would you choose to do that?

 

[oldtimefootball]

Same reason for Heelan. Conference foes all 4a schools.

 

[Reasoned]

It is an odd year when the two best teams in the state will playing the 3A title game and not the 4A title game.

I am convinced that CB Lewis Central and CR Xavier definitely the two best teams.

That is preposterous.

 

[CF_93]

That is preposterous.

Agreed. Maybe top five, but definitely not top two, or even three, by a longshot.