You never saw these injuries 25-30 years ago when kids weren't throwing year round or specializing in 1 sport. It is absolutely ridiculous. Basketball is no different. I can't tell you the number of kids I have seen with chronic ankle and knee injuries because all they are playing is basketball. Don't even get me started on girls basketball where the explosion of ACL injuries the last 15 years still doesn't register with parents and these travel team coaches who think you need to play the sport 365 days a year even when the kid is involved in other sports.
couldn't happen in Iowa
- Thread starter acoach#5
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This problem is not common in fastpitch softball because of the underhand slinging motion. I am no authority on baseball pitching, but might Randy Johnson's 20 year, consistently 95-100 mph, pitching career have been due to his sweeping sidearm delivery being an approximation of the fastpitch softball delivery?
It all starts with the parent. I pulled my kid out of a few organizations because of overuse and made a lot of enemies doing it....just so happens that the organization that Ragan played for was one of them. Not so much pitching overuse but pitching, catching, fielding combined.
You have to find an organization that believes in development and understands that youth baseball is not the most important thing. Most of these organizations do not care about kids going on to high school. You have to be clear about what you want for your kid...I will tell you that a few coaches and organizations will listen but there are those few that will tell you to get out if you don't like it. We got to the point where we had our kid tell coaches that he was sore and couldn't throw just to keep him out.
There are many kids that we have seen in our travels all over the country that have had no problems. And then again we know a few that are going under the knife. The common theme is the mentality of the coaches that those kids played for. A lot of the kids we know in Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas are playing year around with no problems and have been doing so for years. Most of those teams have rosters of 25 - 30 kids that they rotate throughout the year. Kids play when they can, no forcing them.
You have to find an organization that believes in development and understands that youth baseball is not the most important thing. Most of these organizations do not care about kids going on to high school. You have to be clear about what you want for your kid...I will tell you that a few coaches and organizations will listen but there are those few that will tell you to get out if you don't like it. We got to the point where we had our kid tell coaches that he was sore and couldn't throw just to keep him out.
There are many kids that we have seen in our travels all over the country that have had no problems. And then again we know a few that are going under the knife. The common theme is the mentality of the coaches that those kids played for. A lot of the kids we know in Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas are playing year around with no problems and have been doing so for years. Most of those teams have rosters of 25 - 30 kids that they rotate throughout the year. Kids play when they can, no forcing them.
So a kid threw 7 innings on Tuesday, 1 on Thursday, 7 on Saturday and started Tuesday and threw 4 innings.
So in 7 days he threw 19 innings in 4 appearances.
The number of innings doesnt necessarily concern me. Im not sure what his pitch counts were either.
The concern is that he didnt get more than 2 days rest the entire span.
a couple things. He is a senior. It sounds like he might be going on to play small college. Not sure if its as a pitcher.
Are we too concerned about situations like this or should it be "ok"
I am a bit torn on it.
If a kid is regularly abused like this over a season and a career. I have a HUGE problem. If he were a junior, I would have a problem with it.
One stretch like this in the post season for a senior with little prospects for college/pro aspirations?
I dont see it as that major of a deal. Anyone else?
So in 7 days he threw 19 innings in 4 appearances.
The number of innings doesnt necessarily concern me. Im not sure what his pitch counts were either.
The concern is that he didnt get more than 2 days rest the entire span.
a couple things. He is a senior. It sounds like he might be going on to play small college. Not sure if its as a pitcher.
Are we too concerned about situations like this or should it be "ok"
I am a bit torn on it.
If a kid is regularly abused like this over a season and a career. I have a HUGE problem. If he were a junior, I would have a problem with it.
One stretch like this in the post season for a senior with little prospects for college/pro aspirations?
I dont see it as that major of a deal. Anyone else?
I think it could be fairly easy to track pitch count. The state could require the home team to appoint a competent, offfical scorer using software such as GameTracker. Both coaches would have to sign off on the the scorers results at game end. Post the numbers to quikstats - done.
Sure, it's not particularly easy to be perfectly accurate with pitch counts. However, "close enough" is good enough. Even off a 5-10 pitches wouldn't be the end of the world.
As GG points out, there are ways to do it AND, I see no reason it couldn't be posted into quikstats for each appearance.
Will there be people attempt to game it? Yes. There always is, but there are some safeguards that can minimize dishonesty.
Innings pitched isn't necessarily fair to all as some kids are dominant and need minimal pitches vs others that aren't as efficient. The same # of innings pitched can have HUGE differences in pitch count.
Pitch count is what it is.
the other argument, as GG makes earlier in the thread, is that not all pitchers and all arms are created equal. That's the rub.
If it is hard to keep track of pitches, then we are STUPID. Little League does it. Watch the Little League World Series, every year they go over their pitching rules. I realize it is their World Series, but they have a digital sign that shows the pitch count. If you use Iscore, it keeps track as well. It can be done, done easily, and done accurately. While we are at it, why not require each school to have a licensed engineer shoot the mound height? They require every school that has wrestling to have their scales certified, why not mounds? It is common knowledge to start a kid out in the spring doing flat ground work, then progress to the hill. Why, because it is hard on the arm for one. So, the higher the mound, the more stress on the arm??? This is a health issue, not to mention not following the rules. If our basketball hoop is 11 ft, people would have an issue with it, but a mound that is 18-24 inches is ok????? Bull. My son threw 76 pitches in 6 innings of work in a game this year, that was efficient. In another game he threw 78 in 5 innings, while our other pitcher threw 66 in 2 innings. Now if the other player pitched 7 innings at that pace, our coach wouldn't dear do it, but by rule it would be legal. Pitch count is the way to go folks.
Yes a week is Sunday to Saturday. I thought I read somewhere that 2 days rest was 2 days rest though.
Specifically, "2 days rest" means 2 calendar days.
I only point it out because in 2006, the rule was written simply as "2 days rest". This caused a big controversy in a 3A state semi-final game between Carrol and Western Dubuque that year.
WD brought a pitcher in relief who had rested a full 48 hours since the end of his last appearance, but not two calendar days. I'm not sure, but the 48th hour might have actually ticked by during the contest. WD interpreted that he was immediately eligible to pitch and brought him in an inning or two later to end the game.
WD won 5-3.
Shortly after the game, Carrol appealed to the IAHSAA and, at first, won the appeal and was awarded the victory and a spot in the championship game because WD pitched in ineligible pitcher.
Obviously, this didn't sit well with WD.
They appealed the appeal and were given the chance to argue their position. WD argued that the rule did not say "two calendar days rest", but simply "two days rest". WD challenged the committee to prove that two days doesn't equal 48 hours. The offical scorebook confirmed that 48 hours had expired between outings.
The committee agreed that the rule, as written, contained enough ambiguity that they couldn't take the victory away from the team that won it on the field. They reversed their reversal and WD andvanced the the championship game (which they lost).
This back and forth was tough on the teams and fans alike, not to mention embarassing to Boone, and why the current pitching rule now provides multiple scenarios clarifying when two calendar days rest is required.
I only point it out because in 2006, the rule was written simply as "2 days rest". This caused a big controversy in a 3A state semi-final game between Carrol and Western Dubuque that year.
WD brought a pitcher in relief who had rested a full 48 hours since the end of his last appearance, but not two calendar days. I'm not sure, but the 48th hour might have actually ticked by during the contest. WD interpreted that he was immediately eligible to pitch and brought him in an inning or two later to end the game.
WD won 5-3.
Shortly after the game, Carrol appealed to the IAHSAA and, at first, won the appeal and was awarded the victory and a spot in the championship game because WD pitched in ineligible pitcher.
Obviously, this didn't sit well with WD.
They appealed the appeal and were given the chance to argue their position. WD argued that the rule did not say "two calendar days rest", but simply "two days rest". WD challenged the committee to prove that two days doesn't equal 48 hours. The offical scorebook confirmed that 48 hours had expired between outings.
The committee agreed that the rule, as written, contained enough ambiguity that they couldn't take the victory away from the team that won it on the field. They reversed their reversal and WD andvanced the the championship game (which they lost).
This back and forth was tough on the teams and fans alike, not to mention embarassing to Boone, and why the current pitching rule now provides multiple scenarios clarifying when two calendar days rest is required.
Saw a hard throwing lefty today that is just a junior and has some potential. (Mid 80's at times)
However, he will be lucky to make it to college with the coach he has. He threw every post season game and today pitched a complete game.
he should have been pulled the last 2 innings with the score out of reach a d gave another player a chance to gain experience. Particularly when the team is fairly young and will have a chance to make it back next season.
i read an article online this morning about the game and the coach addressed the "abuse" and justified his actions and alluded to getting a green light from his admin. !!!
as a junior and a lefty with potential to move on, maybe even fairly high, this is a prime example of abuse of a young arm.
Based on his stats, you can see this wasnt a one time thing. This coach should not be allowed to do this next year.
However, he will be lucky to make it to college with the coach he has. He threw every post season game and today pitched a complete game.
he should have been pulled the last 2 innings with the score out of reach a d gave another player a chance to gain experience. Particularly when the team is fairly young and will have a chance to make it back next season.
i read an article online this morning about the game and the coach addressed the "abuse" and justified his actions and alluded to getting a green light from his admin. !!!
as a junior and a lefty with potential to move on, maybe even fairly high, this is a prime example of abuse of a young arm.
Based on his stats, you can see this wasnt a one time thing. This coach should not be allowed to do this next year.
I saw the same thing. Not only did he pitch all post season but look at this:
Wed 07/02/2014 W 7 2 1 0 3 14 0.00
Mon 07/07/2014 W 7 4 2 0 2 14 0.00
Tue 07/08/2014 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sat 07/12/2014 W 7 2 0 0 4 16 0.00
Tue 07/15/2014 W 7 0 0 0 2 14 0.00
Sat 07/19/2014 W 7 2 1 1 2 14 1.00
Tue 07/22/2014 W 7 6 4 2 1 9 2.00
And then include yesterdays game.....If I was that kids parents I would be throwing a fit. He was spaced out but what does this say for your team.
Wed 07/02/2014 W 7 2 1 0 3 14 0.00
Mon 07/07/2014 W 7 4 2 0 2 14 0.00
Tue 07/08/2014 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sat 07/12/2014 W 7 2 0 0 4 16 0.00
Tue 07/15/2014 W 7 0 0 0 2 14 0.00
Sat 07/19/2014 W 7 2 1 1 2 14 1.00
Tue 07/22/2014 W 7 6 4 2 1 9 2.00
And then include yesterdays game.....If I was that kids parents I would be throwing a fit. He was spaced out but what does this say for your team.
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