1.65 Solution please...

[OHS4life]

Newman Catholic vs. Don Bosco Catholic
Twin Cedars vs. Gehlen Catholic


Well....one word sticks out to me there...three times. Will there ever be a solution to this? Frankly, seeing these names over and over in smaller class tournaments is sickening. Having an inside source from one of these three schools allows me to post this thread. Go TC!

 

[tm3308]

It's not going to happen, and it shouldn't at this point. Stop whining and work harder.

 

[rengstra]

So....what is the tipping point? Your statement would lead one to believe that at some point in time this type of solution is warranted. If other States have already gone this route I wonder what their tipping point was?

 

[Saints85]

What does "I have an inside source" mean????? I don't want you to give up the person's name or anything like that. Just curious as to what the heck that means. Other states, Ohio, has the voucher system allowing parents to choose where to send their tax dollars for their children's education. Are you for that too? Other states have allowed marijuana use, are you for that?

 

[OHS4life]

It shouldn't happen at this point? Why? Because they have gotten away with RECRUITING this long? Yep. I sure said it...that dreaded R-word. As for working harder...if I told you my alma mater, or who I'm in defense of, you'd take that comment back. Some of these schools wouldn't know what the term "rebuilding season" meant even if it slapped 'em in the face. For example: Looking at Twin Cedars roster this year, 4 of them started as freshmen and one as an 8th grader. THEY are a team deserving of a state title.


The tipping point? I think the tip has already been pointed. The IAHSAA is too blind to see it.


As for my inside source. I know a faculty member at one of these three schools who is well aware of how athletics is run (behind 'closed doors) at this certain school. Not pretty. As for what Ohio does with their tax dollars and what other states do with marijuana, I don't care. Just because I'd like to see something done on this particular subject, doesn't mean I'm in agreement with a hand full of other rules and regulations. Thanks for your concern.

 

[se xc1]

Just because that school does things "not pretty", and I am not saying any does, doesn't mean the whole group is. And as far as recruiting goes, the public school coaches are always asking me to send my boy there. It is flattering, but I don't turn them in or have a problem with it. I support their team as well, except for when they play us.

 

[VerbumDei]

Love these posts! Keep 'em coming! Free public schools with open enrollment and access to tax dollars are at a terrible disadvantage vs the Catholic Schools and something must be done!!


Verbum Dei

AMDG

This post was edited on 7/30 6:12 PM by VerbumDei

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by OHS4life:

It shouldn't happen at this point? Why? Because they have gotten away with RECRUITING this long? Yep. I sure said it...that dreaded R-word. As for working harder...if I told you my alma mater, or who I'm in defense of, you'd take that comment back. Some of these schools wouldn't know what the term "rebuilding season" meant even if it slapped 'em in the face. For example: Looking at Twin Cedars roster this year, 4 of them started as freshmen and one as an 8th grader. THEY are a team deserving of a state title.


The tipping point? I think the tip has already been pointed. The IAHSAA is too blind to see it.


As for my inside source. I know a faculty member at one of these three schools who is well aware of how athletics is run (behind 'closed doors) at this certain school. Not pretty. As for what Ohio does with their tax dollars and what other states do with marijuana, I don't care. Just because I'd like to see something done on this particular subject, doesn't mean I'm in agreement with a hand full of other rules and regulations. Thanks for your concern.

*Yawn*

 

[cidhawkeye]

Please review the football boards to see the facts that point out the flaws in your thought process. Do some homework and present a well thought out solution.

 

[tm3308]

Even just one elite private school program is too many for some people. In baseball, I can only think of a handful of elite private schools: Beckman, Assumption and Newman. You could throw Kuemper in there, too, but they still don't have a single championship. They're in the next tier, IMO.

But I never hear people complaining about North Polk, who is in the semifinals seemingly every year (they've made it that far in 13 of 14 trips to state, including 4 finals appearances). Or Harlan, Kee, Valley, or even Martensdale (even though they sometimes get mistaken for a private school by those who aren't familiar with them).

Private schools have won 18 of a possible 56 baseball championships since the turn of the century, with 9 of those coming from Newman, Assumption or Beckman. Heelan, Dowling and Spalding all had a couple, and Iowa Mennonite, Xavier and St. Edmond each put one up. Only three times did a private school beat another private school in the finals.

18 of 56 is certainly out of proportion for the number of private schools in the state. But we're dealing with a very small sample size, where even just three great programs (Beckman, Assumption and Newman) can skew the numbers pretty significantly. And for the record, none of those three schools have won as many titles as Valley since 2000.

And honestly, I barely consider Beckman a private school, anyway, at least when discussing any advantages that come with being a private school. Dyersville is an awfully big town not to have a public school, and I'd bet that the overwhelming majority of the students who attend Beckman would still be in the district if Beckman were public.

 

[gg2224]

Based on this year's enrollment numbers, counting each private school student as 1.65 students would only push Newman, Garrigan and Don Bosco into 2A.

That means the three smallest 2A schools would get pushed down into 1A (i.e., Eldon, Colfax-Mingo, HMS. Fourth in line is Van Meter). Other recent state qualifiers that are within 15 students of dropping to 1A include Van Meter (+1), Hinton(+7), Ogden(+9), MVAO(+14), South Winneshiek(+15) and Wilton(+15). Once you start playing with how enrollment numbers are determined beyond counting true enrollment, who knows where the chips may fall. One could jump out of the pan and into the fire. There are some very good smaller 2A schools that could compete very well in 1A.

Which brings me to the motivation for making such a change. Why do it? I think one of the great and unique things about baseball is how a group of average athletes can band together and make great things happen - many times against superior talent. Those are the great victories that last a life time.

By any measure, TC has already had a great year. And while a state championship would be a special accomplishment, would it mean as much to them if they eliminated their greatest challengers, the best in 1A, through a math equation?

TC will have their chance on the field as will the other three semi-finalists.

Good luck to all and let the best team win.

 

[maxstabs13]

Don Bosco used to be horrible in everything but wrestling. They put a few coaches together and get better in other sports and now they cheat...

Newman has always been good at baseball...

I don't know the story on Gehlen but my guess is the two situations I have listed above they fall under one of them.

Schools do change you know...

Kee High Lansing won title after title for years... Surely they must have been recruiting from Waukon and MFL and probably Wisconsin as well.

I am not Catholic and never attended any Catholic schools, but I have friends from Waterloo Columbus and Davenport Assumption. I have friends from public schools in both of those towns as well.

I know the All-Time leading scorer for Davenport North basketball who played at St. Ambrose has told me he is thinking about sending his kids to Assumption because he feels it a better educational opportunity. These kids don't get recruited to schools. The parents decide if they feel it is right or wrong for them to go to public school or private school based on the situation from an educational standpoint.

This private school stuff gets old every single year...

 

[Saints85]

The last 6 posts have been spot on, but you can't use stats or logic when discussing things with irrational people.

 

[kruck5]

OHS4LIFE, currious to your thoghts on " open enrollment"
Clear Lake won the 3A title last year, their Star player lives in Mason City, I have heard several more basball players from Mason City may "open enroll" to Clear Lake to play baseball, football, etc. Because Clear Lake is winning in these sports. Are you going to force Clear Lake wictch in dropping to 2A in some sports to go to 3 or 4A?
Bottom line, whether it be public or private, parents are paying HUGE dollars for their kids education, (taxes or tuition).
Since parents are footing the bill, I think it should be entirely their CHOICE where to spend THEIR dollars.
If that were allowed to happen, education in this country WOULD GET BETTER.
Doing nothing in education is just going to keep us falling further and furthet behind. As is, our education system is the most exspensive in the world, and we get little to no results

 

[terrehawk]

Originally posted by tm3308:


But I never hear people complaining about North Polk, who is in the semifinals seemingly every year (they've made it that far in 13 of 14 trips to state, including 4 finals appearances). Or Harlan, Kee, Valley,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to add some clarity here.

North Polk, like Solon a few years ago, will be 3A shortly so that "issue" will take care of itself. They won't be 2A any longer

Harlan has always been at least 3A so they aren't an issue either.

Valley? 4A...Duh.

3A and 4A size communities can fend for themselves based on enrollment size.

The big issue isn't recruiting. It's simply 1A and 2A programs competing in 3A and 4A size "districts" or areas. That's the only issue I've ever had.

Some will bring up that some pvts weren't always competitive but the counter argument there is simply that there has been an explosion in focus on athletics in the past decade or so. It's now much like a business. Lot's more training and higher quality coaching available today. IMO, that's why you are seeing the rise of pvt schools in so many sports. The fact that they are mostly in 3A and 4A size communities where they draw their pool of students from make it advantageous for them.

I don't necessarily have a problem with it but let's be honest about it at least and not dishonestly say that they simply work harder than the publics. There is generally a geographic advantage for them as far as inventory goes..

The only school that is an aberration is really Western Christian as they aren't located in a large population base, however there are a very large number of small communities surrounding them which make it a unique situation.

 

[OHS4life]

And you're catholic. And you're catholic. And you're catholic. Oh and you must be catholic too. You guys are all so right. You have changed my opinion greatly. Next year, I'm going to root for the team with the fanciest jerseys. Chances are, it will be a catholic school. Shucks.

10/4

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by terrehawk:

Originally posted by tm3308:


But I never hear people complaining about North Polk, who is in the semifinals seemingly every year (they've made it that far in 13 of 14 trips to state, including 4 finals appearances). Or Harlan, Kee, Valley,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to add some clarity here.

North Polk, like Solon a few years ago, will be 3A shortly so that "issue" will take care of itself. They won't be 2A any longer

Harlan has always been at least 3A so they aren't an issue either.

Valley? 4A...Duh.

3A and 4A size communities can fend for themselves based on enrollment size.

The big issue isn't recruiting. It's simply 1A and 2A programs competing in 3A and 4A size "districts" or areas. That's the only issue I've ever had.

Some will bring up that some pvts weren't always competitive but the counter argument there is simply that there has been an explosion in focus on athletics in the past decade or so. It's now much like a business. Lot's more training and higher quality coaching available today. IMO, that's why you are seeing the rise of pvt schools in so many sports. The fact that they are mostly in 3A and 4A size communities where they draw their pool of students from make it advantageous for them.

I don't necessarily have a problem with it but let's be honest about it at least and not dishonestly say that they simply work harder than the publics. There is generally a geographic advantage for them as far as inventory goes..

The only school that is an aberration is really Western Christian as they aren't located in a large population base, however there are a very large number of small communities surrounding them which make it a unique situation.

This never seems to stop anyone from complaining about Xavier, Heelan and Dowling.

I've never said that the only reason private schools are succeeding is that they work harder. They do have an advantage based on their geography (in most cases, anyway). But that doesn't mean it's some sort of problem that needs to be corrected with a multiplier (or any other solution). These schools aren't unbeatable, and if people spent more time focusing on getting better and less time whining, they might have a little more success.

You could bump up every private school, and as soon as they start achieving at a high level again, people will throw the same fit all over again. This isn't a solvable problem, if it's even a problem in the first place. There are simply a lot of people who won't be happy unless private schools are either put at such a disadvantage through absurdly high multipliers that schools like Don Bosco are competing against 3A schools, or they're put in their own separate class altogether. Neither are going to happen, so we continue to stay stuck in the same rut of a discussion. At some point, people just need to get over it.

 

[mjbclone]

Let's remove "recruiting" from the discussion, because everyone has that ability - public schools have open-enrollment. In fact, private Catholic schools couldn't exist without recruiting -- their entire existence is based upon their ability to recruit students to come to their school.

What this boils down to, in my humble opinion, is student participation rates. If you look at private schools, in general, I would guess the participation rates for extracurricular activities is much higher than regular 1A schools (and no I don't have any facts or figures to back that up). Look at the number of kids some private schools rolls out for an 8-man football team. Some private schools have over 40 kids on the roster. Most 8-man football teams are lucky to get 20 kids. The sheer numbers provide them a great advantage.

Baseball rosters are in the same discussion. Most 1A schools are lucky to get 15-20 kids on their rosters these days. These programs struggle to run a JV schedule because the program likely has 2 or 3 8th-graders or freshmen who participate on the varsity team as well. Current IAHSAA guidelines limit the number of total games to 40. So many small schools can't even develop young players because they violate the 40 game limit. (the Girls Athletic Association allows 60 games so that eases the issue with the JV schedule). A private school with high participation rates can easily field a JV program that can play a full schedule and allow those kids to compete against age-appropriate competition.

These are issues most larger schools (2A/3A) never really have to deal with. The same is true for 1A private schools who have very high participation rates. They have 15 true varsity kids, and 15 JV kids who can play a full JV schedule. It's not always about "working harder"... You just can't expect a freshman to always be able to compete against a senior (especially in football). The senior is just way more physically mature.

I won't go so far as to say these challenges don't exist at private schools, they likely happen at a much, much lower level.

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by mjbclone:
Let's remove "recruiting" from the discussion, because everyone has that ability - public schools have open-enrollment. In fact, private Catholic schools couldn't exist without recruiting -- their entire existence is based upon their ability to recruit students to come to their school.

What this boils down to, in my humble opinion, is student participation rates. If you look at private schools, in general, I would guess the participation rates for extracurricular activities is much higher than regular 1A schools (and no I don't have any facts or figures to back that up). Look at the number of kids some private schools rolls out for an 8-man football team. Some private schools have over 40 kids on the roster. Most 8-man football teams are lucky to get 20 kids. The sheer numbers provide them a great advantage.

Baseball rosters are in the same discussion. Most 1A schools are lucky to get 15-20 kids on their rosters these days. These programs struggle to run a JV schedule because the program likely has 2 or 3 8th-graders or freshmen who participate on the varsity team as well. Current IAHSAA guidelines limit the number of total games to 40. So many small schools can't even develop young players because they violate the 40 game limit. (the Girls Athletic Association allows 60 games so that eases the issue with the JV schedule). A private school with high participation rates can easily field a JV program that can play a full schedule and allow those kids to compete against age-appropriate competition.

These are issues most larger schools (2A/3A) never really have to deal with. The same is true for 1A private schools who have very high participation rates. They have 15 true varsity kids, and 15 JV kids who can play a full JV schedule. It's not always about "working harder"... You just can't expect a freshman to always be able to compete against a senior (especially in football). The senior is just way more physically mature.

I won't go so far as to say these challenges don't exist at private schools, they likely happen at a much, much lower level.

You can't possibly hope to base classifications on participation, though. That's not very predictable, and it wouldn't be fair to use the numbers from the previous year, either. If a program has a high participation rate, I say good for them. That's one of the marks of a great program: everyone wants to be a part of it. Schools shouldn't be punished for that.

 

[mjbclone]

Obviously, Iowa isn't alone in this discussion. Wisconsin has been debating this very issue for years as well.

http://www.wiscnews.com/sports/high-school/article_c93cb06a-ee56-5fa4-9871-194a348da80f.html

http://host.madison.com/sports/columnists/art-kabelowsky/prep-sports-wiaa-member-schools-delay-vote-on-private-schools/article_d4319913-543d-5967-a569-736c413dce1c.html

Wisconsin delayed the vote on the multiplier and agreed to form a committee to study the situation. So who knows where it will end up.
This post was edited on 8/1 10:01 AM by mjbclone

 

[OHS4life]

A "good program" shouldn't have a problem playing up a class then if they are continuously seeing good participation numbers. Are you scared to see, for instance, a Newman vs. North Polk championship game? Or a Beckman vs. Waverly Shell-Rock championship game? Or are you scared of the fact that if those schools were bumped a class, they wouldn't even make it that far? Point is...REAL good programs eventually fade for awhile. The REAL good programs want nothing to do with open enrolling a student just for sports. Feels better to win championships playing the kids you started with.

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by OHS4life:

A "good program" shouldn't have a problem playing up a class then if they are continuously seeing good participation numbers. Are you scared to see, for instance, a Newman vs. North Polk championship game? Or a Beckman vs. Waverly Shell-Rock championship game? Or are you scared of the fact that if those schools were bumped a class, they wouldn't even make it that far? Point is...REAL good programs eventually fade for awhile. The REAL good programs want nothing to do with open enrolling a student just for sports. Feels better to win championships playing the kids you started with.

It's not about being scared. It's the fact that a successful program shouldn't be expected to play above their enrollment simply because they would be competitive if they did so, or because they have better participation numbers than their peers. North Polk has 4 finals appearances since 2006, exactly as many as Beckman. I suppose North Polk isn't one of your "real" good programs, either. They don't exactly have down years, and they've always had great participation numbers; sure, they're going up to 3A soon, but that's because their enrollment is going to put them there, not because they're choosing to play up.

The vast majority of kids in private schools either start in kindergarten or very early on in grade school. There aren't that many kids who come in as high school students. Does that never happen? Of course it does (Rico Gafford to Dowling is the most recent, high-profile example). But that happens at public schools, too (Peter Jok to Valley, etc.). After that, it's up to coaching and players putting in the work. And there are some great coaches at the private schools in a variety of sports (Jenk, Argo and Adams in baseball, Wilson and Cook in football, etc.).

And for the record, I'm a public school alum (Wayne, Corydon) and don't have any kind of stake in keeping things the way they are. I just don't think there's a problem. Public schools still dominate the number of championships, finals appearances and semifinal appearances in every sport. Some people just don't like losing to private schools and would rather argue to just get rid of them than actually outplay them.
This post was edited on 8/1 3:46 PM by tm3308

 

[kruck5]

Assumption just made the finals! It because they are CATHOLIC!! Its not because the Waverly pitchers hit 4 batters, walked a couple of more, gave up a couple of hits for a total of 6 runs in the 7th.
Waverly had nothing to do with it, its just because Assuption is Catholic.

 

[cidhawkeye]

The REAL good programs want nothing to do with open enrolling a student just for sports. Feels better to win championships playing the kids you started with.

You need to look around a little more before you throw that statement out. I have watched this debate primarily on the football board, I watched a Regina team with 24 seniors of which 21 started at the school in kindergarten have to deal with the recruiting story line, heck they made a poster of that team that said from first grade to first place, I watched them graduate 10 kids last year so it's not all about numbers, it's not all about location, there is no simple answer, I watched the Regina baseball team go to state this year and in a sub state game the catcher had to run because they only had two subs, so numbers don't always reflect like people assume. It isn't all about working harder either, I know some teams that work very hard, maybe not very smart but plenty hard and they don't move forward. Is the multiplier the answer? If it was there would be more states doing it successfully, separate class? not sure in Iowa it would work. Perhaps we need some of the folks who spend time railing against the system to put their time and effort into devising a better plan. Work for a positive rather than focusing on the negative. As it stands now the open enrollment recruiting is probably way worse than anything the private schools are putting together.

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
The REAL good programs want nothing to do with open enrolling a student just for sports. Feels better to win championships playing the kids you started with.

You need to look around a little more before you throw that statement out. I have watched this debate primarily on the football board, I watched a Regina team with 24 seniors of which 21 started at the school in kindergarten have to deal with the recruiting story line, heck they made a poster of that team that said from first grade to first place, I watched them graduate 10 kids last year so it's not all about numbers, it's not all about location, there is no simple answer, I watched the Regina baseball team go to state this year and in a sub state game the catcher had to run because they only had two subs, so numbers don't always reflect like people assume. It isn't all about working harder either, I know some teams that work very hard, maybe not very smart but plenty hard and they don't move forward. Is the multiplier the answer? If it was there would be more states doing it successfully, separate class? not sure in Iowa it would work. Perhaps we need some of the folks who spend time railing against the system to put their time and effort into devising a better plan. Work for a positive rather than focusing on the negative. As it stands now the open enrollment recruiting is probably way worse than anything the private schools are putting together.

I would agree that hard work isn't the answer in all cases. A lot of schools simply don't have the talent and rarely will, if ever. But those are the same schools that, if the private schools didn't exist, would still struggle on a yearly basis.

Creating a separate class, adding a multiplier, etc. doesn't do much to help the schools that just aren't very good. It helps the teams who are close, but can't quite get over the hump because of the handful of private schools that have strong programs. Working even harder (whether it's lifting/running, off-season tee work, camps, or whatever) is absolutely a solid prescription for those teams, if their goal is to reach the state tournament/win a title against the current competition.

 

[maxstabs13]

I'm just curious...

Moving good private schools up a class would accomplish what? How would you determine which ones are good?

I am pretty sure if you move IC Regina up to 3A in football for the last 4 or 5 years they would still be winning some State Titles. Not saying the past 3A champions were bad, but Regina has been on a talent streak.

If we do that for private schools then what makes it right for teams like Harlan to not be moved to 4A football?

Trying to separate the good and bad teams might as well be the solution, but you can't determine that without having them play each other.

How about no classes and everyone plays each other once. Then you determine classes after that. Then Class A is for all teams who absolutely suck. Congrats on winning the State Title of the worst teams in the state...

 

[brewcrewman1]

My words to the starter of this topic...SHUT UP AND PLAY BASEBALL !!!
(I'm a non catholic and don't have an issue with who wins or does not win)

 

[long-may-u-run]

They should have broken up Norway a long time ago! Oh wait, never mind!

 

[long-may-u-run]

In 1979 there were far more schools and only 2 classes, yes 2!! Quit bitching about it. Not everyone gets there trophy

 

[Arbitr8]

Originally posted by OHS4life:

It shouldn't happen at this point? Why? Because they have gotten away with RECRUITING this long? Yep. I sure said it...that dreaded R-word. As for working harder...if I told you my alma mater, or who I'm in defense of, you'd take that comment back. Some of these schools wouldn't know what the term "rebuilding season" meant even if it slapped 'em in the face. For example: Looking at Twin Cedars roster this year, 4 of them started as freshmen and one as an 8th grader. THEY are a team deserving of a state title.


The tipping point? I think the tip has already been pointed. The IAHSAA is too blind to see it.


As for my inside source. I know a faculty member at one of these three schools who is well aware of how athletics is run (behind 'closed doors) at this certain school. Not pretty. As for what Ohio does with their tax dollars and what other states do with marijuana, I don't care. Just because I'd like to see something done on this particular subject, doesn't mean I'm in agreement with a hand full of other rules and regulations. Thanks for your concern.

They recruit them right out of kindergarten.

 

[OHS4life]

Haha, I love how worked up everyone gets about this topic. I've got my popcorn!

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by OHS4life:
Haha, I love how worked up everyone gets about this topic. I've got my popcorn!

Hey, you're the one who's outraged that a few private schools have so much success. Well, one of the ones, anyway.

 

[Vroom_C14]

How many special-ed kids do private schools get?

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by Vroom_C14:

How many special-ed kids do private schools get?

How many do public schools get? It's not like half the student body at a public school is in special-ed. That "advantage" is overblown in a big way.

 

[cidhawkeye]

They typically don't get many at all. The private schools don't get government money to run those programs so they aren't equipped to provide that service. They do however take in some behavioral kids that the public schools have sent their way.

 

[Vroom_C14]

My son's grade alone has 16 classified as "504" multiply that by 4 grades... your enrollment changes.

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by Vroom_C14:

My son's grade alone has 16 classified as "504" multiply that by 4 grades... your enrollment changes.

And your son is in which school district? 64 kids would be huge at a 1A/2A school, but not so much at the big schools. Plus, not every kid in special-ed is the same. Some of them are more than capable of competing well in sports.

 

[cidhawkeye]

BEDs are 3 years I believe and I thought the state average was around 12 but the chart was confusing, and that was for all schools combined. someone with an axe to grind and some time on their hands should do some research and present their case on the subject.

 

[Saints85]

First of all, know what you are talking about, or at least show us that you do. There are a variety of ways that kids are "pulled out" or get "special instruction." There are IEP's, 504 plans, etc. My best friend teaches at a private school. He didn't explain the difference between those, or how a student qualifies. He said they have kids that are on both, and that the % is not very high. However, he also says that over half of those are involved in band, choir, sports or a combination of those. Maybe his school is an exception, but those are the facts.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by tm3308:

Originally posted by Vroom_C14:

My son's grade alone has 16 classified as "504" multiply that by 4 grades... your enrollment changes.

And your son is in which school district? 64 kids would be huge at a 1A/2A school, but not so much at the big schools. Plus, not every kid in special-ed is the same. Some of them are more than capable of competing well in sports.

16 kids alone would drop them a classification. Knowing the kids and the ones that do participate I will round the number to 50 between the 4 grades that qualify for 504 status - only 5 play sports.

I don't think you can apply a multiplier to just the "good" private schools - IMHO I think it would have to be applied to those that reside within a city that has population of "X". So ICR, CRX, SCBH, DA, CBSA and the like would be the main ones hit.